I would pay someone to sight in my rifles,,,

With irons, how you hold the rifle or how you look through the sights can certainly affect zero. This is why, in military courses of fire, we zeroed our own.

A consistent hold with your own rifle will help. The technique I was taught with the M16 / AR15 is to touch the tip of my nose against the charging handle when I achieve cheek weld. My sights are zeroed for me, using that technique. Would they be dead on for somebody with a shorter or longer nose, or differently spaced eyes? Perhaps not.
 
langenc claims:
Quote:
Everyone looks thru sights/scopes differently.

Sorry; 'tain't true. That's one of many myths about the shooting sports.

With the single exception of someone's eye being off center in a scope's optical axis and that scope not focused at the target range, all the light from the target through the sights (scope and iron) is the same for everyone.

It's physically impossible for different eyes to see the relationship of the sights to the target for a given alignment with each other.
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If its a myth, then why have I seen, and experienced people having different points of impact using the same sight settings?

Because we hold the gun differently at the moment of firing? Or something else?

Two examples from my personal expierence;
#1) back when my Dad and I were shooting, all his handguns were sighted for him, center hold. When I shot them, in order to hit center, I had to hold 6 o'clock.
#2) myself and a friend, each shooting a different bolt action rifle, trading rifles for alternate shots. CONSISTANTLY 1/2" difference in point of impact @100yds. He would hit dead center with his rifle, and 1/2" high with mine, and the same for me, dead on with mine, 1/2" high with his. Both rifles wearing 3x9 scopes.

Now, if we weren't looking through the scopes differently, then what was happening?

I've sighted in rifles and handguns for other people, and have always told them that it would be "on" for me, but might not be for them. And that is exactly what has always happened. Sometimes, my sight in has been perfect for them, and other times, it has been close, but not dead on for them, but dead on for me. IF its a myth, then why does it happen?
 
44 Amp asks about the comment stating everyone looks thru sights/scopes differently and my counter that it's a myth:
If its a myth, then why have I seen, and experienced people having different points of impact using the same sight settings?

Because we hold the gun differently at the moment of firing? Or something else?
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The reason different people get different points of impact with the same sight settings is as I explained before; we all don't hold the firearm the exact same way. The firearm recoils in different amounts and in different directions while the bullet's going down the barrel.

Our eyes all will see the same sight picture with scopes as well as with open or aperture front and rear sights when they're aligned the same way on the target. The exact same thing happens when a digital camera mounted on a sturdy tripod and focused at some object and its perfectly centered on something. Everyone behind it looking at the image on the LCD display sees it the same regardless of where they are behind it. That image on the camera's sensor is done exactly the same way our eyes focus it on our retina; there ain't one bit of difference. Every one behind that camera will see exactly the same image and everything appears the same.

Those not believing this might consider asking their favorite eye doctor about it. If those professionals don't convince one otherwise, then maybe those disbelievers should explain why rays of light travel through sights differently for different people and what laws of physics change to make that happen depending on the person looking through the sights.

A good way to see just the differences in how one uses their trigger hand on a rifle is to mount a laser pointer on it adjusted to put the spot at the point of aim. Then have someone watch them dry fire the rifle and see what direction and how much it moves when the firing pin falls. Most folks are pretty surprised at how much they jerk the rifle off its point of aim from where it was just before the firing pin fell. Then see what happens when several people do this with the same rifle.
 
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Aarond,


I put a Timney trigger in my 452 and it tightened things up a bit. The factory trigger on mine was a little rough.

Steve
 
Hello bipe215,,,

I've resisted doing any modifications to the rifle as yet,,,
I haven't even tried to adjust the trigger on it,,,
It's already so much nicer than my others.

I want to tighten up any of the human elements first,,,
I'm trying to not be the one who throws money at a problem.

Except ammo of course,,,
I'll spend as much on that as needed.

But thanks for the suggestion,,,
I wasn't aware Timney made a trigger for it.

Aarond

.
 
A couple of low cost improvements available from a fellow, I think his name was Eric Brooks:

- a lower weight spring for the trigger, and

- an aperture to replace the rear u-notch.

When I was looking, I think you could get both for $20.
 
Arrond, your 61 & having trouble shooting with iron sights - buy a scope for your CZ & start enjoying the potential accuracy of this fine .22. Everyones eyes deteriorate at some stage & you've done better than some if youre still shooting iron sights in your 60's.
As for having other people sight your rifles in for you, I can relate a story of some 25 years ago. My brother & I went to a rifle range together. He was most impressed with his scoped Marlin 39A, putting 5 shots through the same hole at 50 yards shooting over sandbag rest. I could also put 5 shots through the same hole at 50 yards with my brothers Marlin 39A, BUT the 2 groups were over 1 inch apart. My brother is left handed & I'm right handed, maybe this caused the difference , but it sure highlighted the fact many years ago to me, that 2 people can definately shoot to different zero with the same rifle.
 
While I admire the effort to improve by practicing a lot, you must also make an effort to avoid reinforcing bad habits. If you want to shoot well, it is worthwhile to have someone teach you. It takes less than a hundred repetitions to form a habit, it takes thousands to break one.

Find a local club that teaches marksmanship fundamentals.
Read books or military field manuals that are intended to tech people how to shoot.
Attend an Appleseed where the volunteers spend a weekend teaching you how to shoot.
Take a training class at a facility that caters to the customer experience.

Don't obsess over your zero. Just circle your group with a marker and adjust so the point of aim is roughly in the middle. I don't think a deer is going to wait around to see if the statistical center of a large number of shots is where it should be.

As you eliminate one bad habit at a time, the position and shape of your groups will change. Learn the relationship between the clicks on your sights and the number of inches on the target, then adjust as often as you need.

And focus your eye on the front sight.
 
There sure is a lot of going back and forth about whether one shooter's zero is the same as another's, I'm glad I brought it up ;) I do know that the Army requires each soldier to zero his/her own rifle, if those zeros were all the same I don't think there would be any point. They would just assign one soldier to take care of all the rifles in the unit, right?

Aarond, I think what you are really asking for is confirmation that your rifle is capable of shooting groups of X size, that would set your mind at ease that your groups of larger than X size are your responsibility and not the rifle's.
 
Proper Sight alignment and trigger control is critical with iron sights. While I'm not going into every detail about how to properly align sights and manipulate the trigger without moving the gun, there is one other thing I did not see on the topic when skimming through the responses. Front sight Focus.

When you are shooting iron sights it is critical that your focus is on the front sight rather than on the target. Get your position squared away and solid, keep a natural point of aim so you are not muscularly forcing your sights onto the target, align the sights with the target, control your breathing, FOCUS on the front sight and gently but deliberately manipulate the trigger.

Target focus will produce erratic groups that will drive you nuts and make you question every thing. Practice will reinforce it and shrink the groups. I have seen it many times with experienced competitive shooters who know how to shoot and are doing everything else correct.
 
Mobuck says:
The comment about no two people having the same zero is bunk. Take this for what it's worth. My older brother was about as different from me as could be. He was left handed, about 6'1", 250-270#. I'm right handed, 5'9", 150-165#. I sighted his rifles in all the time and he then fired a couple of shots to confirm-into the same group.
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Well, if folks do that with apparent succes, I doubt they're able to shoot no worse than about 1 MOA with the sights used. Especially when a couple of shots have less than a 20% chance of represent where the zero's at. If you're both shooting about 2 MOA or thereabouts, it is quite possible that the same sight settings will seem to work.

With a rifle and ammo capable of 1/4 MOA accuracy and both shooters able to call shots within 1/3 MOA of exact, then you'll see the difference in sight settings.
 
Hi, Aaron. Get to an Appleseed!

You'll get coaching and some history lessons and they'll help YOU zero YOUR rifle. They brought me all the way up to mediocre, and that's an accomplishment close to the Moon landings in degree of difficulty.

www.appleseedinfo.org
Looks like there's one about 3 hours away from Stillwater, in Centerton, AR on Dec 15-16
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=27040.0

Typically folks shoot .22LR semi-autos, but you can shoot what ya got, and your CZ Trainer would be fine. I qualified with a CZ-455. Just practice working the bolt in the time it takes to inhale and exhale, you don't have to go any faster than that. You need at least 2 magazines, and practice changing them seated and prone. They gave me lots of advice for running a bolt action in this thread: http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=26206.0
 
As a gunsmith, I've sighted in at least a thousand rifles for others over the years and have never had anyone come back and say it was wrong for them.

At a turkey shoot, four of us used the same rifle to fire one round each and all of us hit the 1" target center on separate shooting rounds, winning 6 turkeys that day. We were shooting prone over a log at 100 yards and the rifle was a .22-250, Rem 700 ADL, 2-8X scope, shooting 55 gr, Sierra Semi-point handloads.

At another shoot, on a bet, my wife shot a perfect pinwheel with the same rifle; her one and only shot in competition, 7 months pregnant, laying on an angle, due to her belly. It wasn't a pretty scene, when other wives were asking her to teach their husbands how to shoot. Most of the guys never returned the next week, so they never held turkey shoots again.
 
Picher sez:
As a gunsmith, I've sighted in at least a thousand rifles for others over the years and have never had anyone come back and say it was wrong for them.

At a turkey shoot, four of us used the same rifle to fire one round each and all of us hit the 1" target center on separate shooting rounds, winning 6 turkeys that day. We were shooting prone over a log at 100 yards and the rifle was a .22-250, Rem 700 ADL, 2-8X scope, shooting 55 gr, Sierra Semi-point handloads.

At another shoot, on a bet, my wife shot a perfect pinwheel with the same rifle; her one and only shot in competition, 7 months pregnant, laying on an angle, due to her belly. It wasn't a pretty scene, when other wives were asking her to teach their husbands how to shoot. Most of the guys never returned the next week, so they never held turkey shoots again.
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Well, if folks do that with apparent succes, I doubt they're able to shoot no worse than about 1 MOA with the sights used. Especially when 1 or 2 shots have less than a 10% chance of represent where the zero's at. If you're both shooting about 2 MOA or thereabouts, it is quite possible that the same sight settings will seem to work.

With a rifle and ammo capable of 1/4 MOA accuracy and both shooters able to call shots within 1/3 MOA of exact, then you'll see the difference in sight settings.

Picher, I think your own and your customers/relatives accuracy standards and levels ain't enough to discriminate the small zero differences that exist between people and a given rifle and ammo. No slam intended, but we all don't have the same levels of marksmanship.

PS: Most of the top prone competitors shoot with their bodies on an angle; that's been happening for over a century.
 
I agree with you Bart. Anyone who can shoot 1/4 min. should be able to sight-in his/her own rifle to meet their own standards.

When I sight-in rifles for customers, I ask them if they have any preferences for zero or maximum zero range. If not, I'll use my computer ballistics program to find the best compromise zero for the distances most people of their capability are likely to shoot a deer, etc. and the rifle/cartridge/bullet weight they'll be using, etc. (They will usually provide the ammo, but if not, we'll agree on the ammo to be used.)

I also try to simulate the conditions they will encounter in the field, often resting the rifle on my off-hand on the front rest, to simulate an offhand shot. Sometimes it makes quite a difference in POI, especially if the barrel isn't free-floated. If, after being warned, someone rests their barrel instead of the forend, that's their problem.
 
I know my brother and me shots to different zeros in several rifles we have sighted in, he can group them but they are of.

this is me being a LH and he being a RH to so the twist of the barrel factors in?

He made his own scout rifle to but neither me nor my father can get that to shoot straight but my bro keeps it sub moa
 
Husqvarna wonders:
I know my brother and me shots to different zeros in several rifles we have sighted in, he can group them but they are of.

this is me being a LH and he being a RH to so the twist of the barrel factors in?
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I think its caused by the way the rifle recoils when shot by lefties and righties. Rifles tend to move to the right before the bullet leaves the barrel when shot by right handed people; to the left for left handed ones. So, if the rifle's sighted in by a right handed person, a left handed one will need to make a windage correction to the left on the sights.
 
maybe and just throwing this out...but bore sight it.....see if your sight pic is going toward the red dot....that might tell you if your sights are off
 
I've put optical collimators in several 1/3 MOA rifles well zeroed at 100 yards. None of their sights (scope, iron nor apeture) aligned at a point below the collimator's reticule equal to sight height above bore plus bullet drop.
 
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