I would pay someone to sight in my rifles,,,

[Bart B.]

One does not have to be a "crack" shot to sight in a rifle. It can easily be done if the shooter is able to do one very simple thing. Call their shots.

Calling ones shots is the ability to keep ones eyes open when the rifle fires and see where the sights are on the target at that time. If they're aiming at a 3 inch round bullseye at 50 yards using a scope and the retucule appears to be high and right of the bullseye center when the round fires, that's where the shot is "called."

Now look where the bullet hole is at. If the bullet hole is dead center in the black bullseye, the scope's got to be adjusted 'cause the rifle didn't shoot that bullet high and right of the bullseye's center. So move the scope's adjustments so move impact up and to the right.

Now fire another shot, call it, then see where the bullet hole goes relative to where that shot was called. If the rifle didn't "shoot to call," adjust the scope again, load another round and start over.

Keep doing this until the bullet hole appears exactly (or very close to) where you called the shot.

The objective in this procedure is to get the rifle to shoot where it's aimed. After this is done, you can practice your aiming so you'll shoot closer to the desired point of bullet impact.

Period.

Best wished in your new endeavour.

 

[alex0535]

Are you using iron sights or a scope? Your rifle is available with both from factory so its worth asking.

I would be pretty ok with a couple of inches with iron sights. If you are using iron sights, and have less than perfect vision. You will group better with a red dot or reflex sight than iron sights. Its pretty cool stuff, the dot appears to move depending on the position it is viewed from but a good one should put the bullet wherever the red dot is.

I would suggest putting some sort of optic on it, whether it is a red dot/reflex or a decent quality scope if it doesn't have one already.

Also it looks like your model has an adjustable trigger weight. Drop it down and your groups will improve if you use proper technique. It can probably be reduced considerably but i don't know the range it can be adjusted. They usually come from the factory so high that accuracy is impeded.

 

[geetarman]

I guess my doubts come from not having any idea of,,,
How close to the bullseye the sights were adjusted at the factory,,,
I've had knowledgable shooters say they should be exact and some say just the opposite.

Aarond,

The day I took my 452 out the first time, I set the sights at 25 yards and it shot SO good, I moved them to 200 yards and hit the popper 3 times out of 5 tries.

THAT is what prompted me to add a scope.

Take a little time with this rifle. . .it WILL make a believer out of you. Those guns are that good.

I am REALLY tempted to by a bull barrel and find out what can be done when you really put your mind to it.

CZ has been around a while and they really have flown under the radar. The guns are really overlooked and that is a shame.

 

[kraigwy]

Someone else zeroing your rifle means its zeroed for them.

A lead slede zero wont be a hunting zero.

You dont have to shoot itty bitty groups to zero your rifle.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Set your target out to the distance you want it zeroed.

Shoot 10 to 20 rounds, the more the better, dont adjust your sights for this string.

Take your target and draw a cross on it. from 12 to 6 oclock, and 9 to 3 oclock.

Count the bullets in each quarter. Ajust your sights from the high number of shots to the low number of shots.

Now shoot another string. Draw the cross like above, count the holes in each quarter.

Keep doing this until you have the exact number of shots in each quarter.

I don't care how large or small your group is, your rifle is zeroed,, FOR YOU.

Do this using the position you plan on shooting, the most common hunting position is kneeling so sight it in kneeling.

This works with rifle, shotgun or pistols. It works for everyone, regardless of how good or bad you shoot.

 

[langenc]

If you cant sight it in Im not sure you should be shooting it....

Everyone looks thru sights/scopes differently.

Gel some downlaoded ammo and shoot more or a different rifle.

Lighten the trigger. Most shooters could shoot better w/ a lighter trigger.

I was shooting a Savage 99 I bought. Trigger is at least 6#. I dont shoot it well. I cant seem to find a smith to work on it. No parts available should something get screwed up.

 

[Bart B.]

langenc claims:

Everyone looks thru sights/scopes differently.

Sorry; 'tain't true. That's one of many myths about the shooting sports.

With the single exception of someone's eye being off center in a scope's optical axis and that scope not focused at the target range, all the light from the target through the sights (scope and iron) is the same for everyone.

It's physically impossible for different eyes to see the relationship of the sights to the target for a given alignment with each other.

If you're referring to the situation when two people use different sight settings for the same rifle and ammo at a target, that's caused by each person holding the rifle differently. The rifle's movement during recoil while the bullet goes down the barrel will be different.

 

[HiBC]

I will second the idea of "calling the shot".
What that amounts to is getting a mental picture of exactly what the sights looked like on the target when the gun recoiled.

From that,you predict where your hit will be on the target.It is an excersize in focus and concentration.

One important benefit,it insures your eyes are open as the trigger breaks.

Very often,a bit of recoil anticipation,or noise anticipation occrs with that last part of tripping the trigger.Calling the shot is a way to cure it.You might try letting a friend load your rifle,and one time leaving it empty by surprise.That can show you if you are flinching a bit.

If you are using iron sights,realize you must focus on the sights,and concentrate on keeping the sight picture as perfect as possible.

 

[RaySendero]

aarondhgraham wrote:

I would pay someone to sight in my rifles,,,
But they would have to prove themselves with a series of tight groups.

So here's the story,,,
I'm a mediocre rifle shot at best,,,

.....

Aarond

Aarond,

Save your money - Doesn't make sense to have someone sight in a rifle for you if you can't shoot it accurately.

 

[spacecoast]

Good advice from Kraig, it's more difficult (and less reassuring) with open groups obviously but still valid.

 

[aarondhgraham]

Thanks Kraigwy and Spacecoast,,,

Count the bullets in each quarter. Ajust your sights from the high number of shots to the low number of shots.

Okay, that's practical advice a person can use.

Save your money - Doesn't make sense to have someone sight in a rifle for you if you can't shoot it accurately.

Wouldn't you like to know that the sights on your rifle were zeroed?

If you cant sight it in Im not sure you should be shooting it....

That's kind of harsh,,,
Are you saying I should quit shooting?

Are you using iron sights or a scope?

Hello alex0535,,,
Yes, it's a valid question,,,
I did forget to state that in my OP.

I'm using iron sights on this rifle,,,
I have no problem zeroing a scoped rifle,,,
I have a H&R Handi-Rifle in .22 with a Bushnell Banner scope,,,
I got it zeroed very nicely at 50 yards and hit clay pigeons at 100 yards.

It's the 61 year old eyes that are having trouble with iron sights,,,
And I need to stay with irons for this endeavor as rimfire silhouette excludes optics.

I just remember way back in time when my brother-in-law bought a new .22 rifle for my sister,,,
She was so frustrated because after two boxes of ammo she still hadn't hit one Coke can at about 35 yards.

Later on my Dad (who was a phenomenal shot with a .22) shot at a paper target with that gun,,,
It turned out that at that distance the rifle was hitting about 10" to one side,,,
A few taps with a hammer drifted the sight into proper zero.

It's like calibrating any piece of equipment before using it,,,
I would feel my practice time is better spent with a calibrated rifle.

I will try what Kraigwy suggested this weekend,,,
And then work towards tightening my groups with practice.

Thanks gentlemen.

Aarond

.

 

[Onward Allusion]

Bart B.

langenc claims:
Quote:
Everyone looks thru sights/scopes differently.

Sorry; 'tain't true. That's one of many myths about the shooting sports.

The sight picture doesn't change but the person shooting the gun does.

Two people shooting the same gun can get two sets of consistent results because they may:
- hold the gun differently
- perceive recoil differently
- and yes, even see the target differently through a scope because of the way they are holding/resting it.

I have experienced this with handguns and long-guns between family members. One person's zero with a scope may not be another's. There's usually a one or two click adjustment. This is doubly true with handguns/iron sights and those who are cross-eye dominant.

Maybe this is a better way of saying it...
It's not the sights but the way the firearm is held that requires a different zero with the same firearm.

 

[Bart B.]

Onward Allusion's comment:

Two people shooting the same gun can get two sets of consistent results because they may:
- hold the gun differently
- perceive recoil differently

I've shot on and coached long range rifle teams with both aperture front and rear, service rifle aperture at the rear and post up front and scoped rifles. When "hot gunning" a single rifle among all of us, we all had different zeros on its sights. Each man on the gun set the sights for his own zero when he went on the firing line. Sometimes there was as much as 1.5 MOA spread in windage and/or elevation across all four of us on the team with the same rifle and ammo.

Regarding Onward's last line:

- and yes, even see the target differently through a scope because of the way they are holding/resting it.

Several times, I've proved this is also a myth. Prove it to yourself, if you dare.

Putting a collimator in the muzzle for scope sights (whose eyepiece is focused on and parallax free on the reticule and objecive lens is focused on the target so it's parallax free on the reticule) or a false bullseye in front of the front sight for irons or aperture sights, then having folks adjust the W and E knobs to align the reticule or sights on the target ended up with everyone being within 1/4 MOA of each other. When they repeated the setup, they would be within 1/4 MOA of their last one. Had to prove this many times to folks who, like so many, think each of us humans look through sights (metallic or glass) different ways. People don't realize that the light from the target passing by or through the sights to the human eye doesn't change from person to person. The light doesn't know where it's going nor where it'll stop.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

People using iron sights could use them differently, 6 oclock hold versus center hold for example, but any two people who correctly use the same hold will hit the same spot.

Scopes are even simpler. If you're looking through it without parallax and you have your eye correctly centered in the optic, you can't help but hit the same spot. Optics only work one way.

 

[JimPage]

Arrond: the best thing for you to do is buy as much ammo as you can and shoot a lot. If you start flinching, stop for couple days, then shoot some more. That's the best way to learn to shoot. A good coach can help too. But you are getting no where if someone else sights in your rifle, you will still have large groups.

Sighting in does not affect group size, it only affects where the group appears on the target. Group size is affected by the skill of the shooter. So you need to develop your skill. All else doesn't matter.

 

[Onward Allusion]

Heh, didn't realize that I stirred such a storm.

Forgetting about what I've experienced with my boys and a couple of little old 10/22's & Marlin 25's at 25 & 50 yards. . .

Here's something to ponder. . .<gotta love the Interweb>

http://www.snipercountry.com/hottips/ZeroDiffer.htm

Question about scopes being the same for different people. Scopes are all set at some range for parallex on less they are adjustable. if you are shoting at the range for which they are set then the zero should be the same for anyone, but once you move to distances other than where the parallex is set for people will have different zeros because of different ways of holding the weapon" where thier eye is relative to the scope". People who have the same shooting hold and have little difference in thier distance from their eye to their cheek have little difference in where thier eye comes to rest relative to the scope and therefore have closer zeros.

Jeff Cooper <Lo Flyin@aol.com>
MEMphis, TN USA - Friday, November 27, 1998 at 15:18:46 (EST)

 

[Edward429451]

That was cold, Scorch. Aaron, 80% of marksmanship is trigger control & followthrough. You have to learn to call your shots, as was noted. Even a crappy trigger can deliver good groups if you're paying enough attention to call your shots. Trigger pull and calling your shots go together. Pay attention to your trigger pull but no so much that you quit seeing the sight picture. Let your eye control your trigger finger. As the sights come into alignment, trigger pressure is increased. As the sights drift out of alignment, trigger pressure stops but is not released. Sights come back into alignment, trigger pressure is increased...until the shot breaks, and it's at that moment that you have to be very aware of sight alignment and where your sights are...followthrough. That's how you call your shots.

If you was high left when the shot broke, call it. High left. You probably will lose the sight under recoil but you was paying attention to where it was when it broke. When I was just learning this, I thought I was learning trigger control (I was) but I was really learning to call my shots.

Of course if you seen it it high left and the strike was high right (and nothing else happened like flinch, jerking, you blink, etc.) then it is not zeroed and needs adjustment. You'll learn to zero your rifle while you're learning to call your shots.

 

[Deja vu]

My eldest son struggled with flinching for a long time. Even a 22 would make him jump... What did I do? I got him really good hearing protection. It worked well. Noise is worse for flinching than recoil is (in my opinion)

 

[Bart B.]

One other thing that most (yes, most; about 80% from what I've observed) folks do that causes inaccurate shooting is how they use their trigger finger. Keeping ones aiming eye open when the arm fires is also important 'cause if you don't do this, you'll never be able to call your shot.

First off, the jerk, quick-pull or yank ones finger drives the trigger back hard against its stop. That's going to put enough force on the firearm to move it's alignment with the intended target away to someplace else. It's all a subconcious mental process that starts when the sights are well aligned and aimed at the desired point of bullet impact and the instant things look perfect, "NOW" is the mental command to the trigger finger to make it shoot the arm immediately.

Secondly, it doesn't matter whether the trigger was pulled as a result of that subconcious NOW thought that jerked the trigger back, or, a perfect gentle squeeze that makes the arm fire somewhat unexpectedly. As soon as the shooter's subconcious senses feels the trigger break, they flick their trigger finger off of it. I think this is based on ones safety issues and they subconciously don't want their finger on the trigger any more than what's needed. Problem is, that "FINGER FLICKING" is so fast, it puts enough counter force on the arm that it moves off the desired place to put the bullet where it's intended to go. "Follow through" is the term that referrs to the shooter keeping their trigger finger all the way back until they stop moving from recoil. Doing this ensures there'll be no disturbing the arm's position while the firing pin (or hammer) falls, fires the cartridge and the bullet goes through the barrel. After the bullet's left the barrel, one can move whatever body parts they want to 'cause it'll not effect that "perfect shot" in any way.

Had a guy on a military rifle team who was nororious about jerking and finger flicking. But he didn't believe me saying he had this problem. He could not shoot his Garand very accurately in spite of its capability to hold 2/3 MOA at 600 yards with a good lot of M118 match ammo. Best he could do was keep most of his shots inside the 36 inch eight ring on the 600 yard target. So I decided to prove to him that while he could hold and aim his M1 very, very well, he just didn't have good trigger control.

Had him lay down slung up in prone on the 600 yard line, he would single load the Garand, then get into position but his trigger finger was not on the trigger. I layed down beside him then put my right hand thumb behind the trigger guard and my trigger finger on the trigger. After he breathed deep a few times and held his breath, the rifle was then held very still on target. I'd just gently squeeze the trigger firing the shot about 10 seconds after he held his breath. Two shots got a good zero on target. Then he (we?) shot 10 shots for the training session. All ten shots were in the 12 inch ten ring; 4 in the 6 inch X ring. He could not believe he shot that well. And he finally realized he was a finger-jerker and finger-flicker. After some ball and dummy practice, he finally became the best marksman on the 4-man team I was training.

 

[Mobuck]

The comment about no two people having the same zero is bunk. Take this for what it's worth. My older brother was about as different from me as could be. He was left handed, about 6'1", 250-270#. I'm right handed, 5'9", 150-165#. I sighted his rifles in all the time and he then fired a couple of shots to confirm-into the same group.
I used to do sight-ins for pay when I was younger. $5-10 plus ammo was normal. I've shot a LOT of different rifles and never had anyone find a discernable difference in zero. A hard kicking rifle may show some vertical dispersion if a second shooter doesn't resist the recoil the same as the first. That's why a rifle zeroed with a lead sled won't give the same POI when fired from the shoulder.

 

[The Long Shot]

You said you had a .357 rifle. Practice dry firing that at home. Put it over the back of a couch, on a cushion on the table, etc. Practice the fundamentals. When you get good at the trigger pull, put a coin on the barrel and pull the trigger. If the coin stays put the trigger pull is good. Iron sights can be hard to use at times. If you can, get good with a scope, or a red dot. Either will work ar 50 yards with a .22. When you get consistent good results with a scoped rifle, practice with irons. You would want to do it in that order to take all of the variables out, so you know what you're doing wrong. Good luck.