I will never own another Taurus firearm. I could have ended up another statistic!
- Thread starter SkySlash
- Start date
I believe I was very to the point with my letter. I will be sending this letter to Taurus, Return Receipt requested with Delivery Confirmation in the morning. If you click that link, it is 92KB so be fore-warned its a big file.
If anyone can find the name of the President or CEO of Taurus I would be very appreciative of the information. I would like to send that letter directly to him.
If you are interested in this situation, please read that letter and provide feedback if you don't mind.
Thank You!
-SS
If anyone can find the name of the President or CEO of Taurus I would be very appreciative of the information. I would like to send that letter directly to him.
If you are interested in this situation, please read that letter and provide feedback if you don't mind.
Thank You!
-SS
My sympathies. I hope it wasn't your primary defense pistol.
I try to stick to some basic rules when I purchase a firearm for defense.
a. Buy a particular model from a "major" manufacturer that has been widely accepted. For example, a firearm that is being used by US police/leo forces. US forces because we have more money for firearms comparatively and we typically have higher standards and information is readily available. By no means a guarantee, at least it has been put through some stringent use. I refuse to be the guinea pig.
b. Buy a firearm that has been around for at least 4-5 years regardless of make (HK, Sig, Glock, Kimber, Walther all of them). For example, I highly regard guns produced by Sigarms (a highly respected firm) but I still won't consider the P220ST until I see all bugs worked out. (Same goes with new autos, even ones that continue a famous name ie. Mustang, Maxima, Tahoe) I refuse to be the guines pig.
c. A firearm could one day save your life. Paying a little more gives you some peace of mind and your life has no sticker tag. Who care if its the boring typical choice. Go with what has worked. That's why I can't blame anyone going with a good 1911 or the BHP.
This is not to mean Taurus (or less famous brands) make shoddy weapons as a rule. Some of them are excellent but one needs to be more vigilant. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR IN THE OPEN MARKET.
And this is not to say one shouldn't acquire a gun that simply piques your interest. Just don't make it the first one you reach for in times of crisis.
P.S. and for the umpteenth time, The vast, VAST majority of Glock kB's occured with reloads. Something Glock specifically warns against.
I try to stick to some basic rules when I purchase a firearm for defense.
a. Buy a particular model from a "major" manufacturer that has been widely accepted. For example, a firearm that is being used by US police/leo forces. US forces because we have more money for firearms comparatively and we typically have higher standards and information is readily available. By no means a guarantee, at least it has been put through some stringent use. I refuse to be the guinea pig.
b. Buy a firearm that has been around for at least 4-5 years regardless of make (HK, Sig, Glock, Kimber, Walther all of them). For example, I highly regard guns produced by Sigarms (a highly respected firm) but I still won't consider the P220ST until I see all bugs worked out. (Same goes with new autos, even ones that continue a famous name ie. Mustang, Maxima, Tahoe) I refuse to be the guines pig.
c. A firearm could one day save your life. Paying a little more gives you some peace of mind and your life has no sticker tag. Who care if its the boring typical choice. Go with what has worked. That's why I can't blame anyone going with a good 1911 or the BHP.
This is not to mean Taurus (or less famous brands) make shoddy weapons as a rule. Some of them are excellent but one needs to be more vigilant. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR IN THE OPEN MARKET.
And this is not to say one shouldn't acquire a gun that simply piques your interest. Just don't make it the first one you reach for in times of crisis.
P.S. and for the umpteenth time, The vast, VAST majority of Glock kB's occured with reloads. Something Glock specifically warns against.
SkySlash,
I spent a good number of years resolving customer complaints. Believe it or not, most companies view complaints as a positive thing UNLESS there is even the slightest hint of legal intervention. Once the legal hounds are called, then all communication is immediatly turned over to the legal department.
Using words like never buy another Taurus, investigating, research, fraud etc. are self defeating in an initial corresppondence. Why? Because foremost Taurus wants to sell their product. If you admit right up front you're never going to buy another one, to the point of leaveing the area where one is being fired, then they're going to dismiss you as a potential customer and treat you as a hostile. You're (as well as everyone else if there is some hidden defect in design) far better of to just present the facts of what happened and let Taurus take the next step. Informing them of the legal proceedings against Firestone is kind of pointless also. Trust me on this, any company with any public exposure is well aware of those things. In effect, you're talking down to them. Putting them on the immediate defensive is almost a 100% guarantee that you'll get a form letter from their legal department as a reply.
I don't want to come across a dissing your letter OK? I know it's hard to not express how,,,well,,PO'ed you are. I can't blame you there. I'd really recommend rewriting everything, and really try to put as positive a slant on it as you can, and play up to their reputation. Believe me, saying you're done with them is a one way ticket to the bottom of the reply pile. From the looks of things (really ugly ), you have a 100% legitimate complaint.
I spent a good number of years resolving customer complaints. Believe it or not, most companies view complaints as a positive thing UNLESS there is even the slightest hint of legal intervention. Once the legal hounds are called, then all communication is immediatly turned over to the legal department.
Using words like never buy another Taurus, investigating, research, fraud etc. are self defeating in an initial corresppondence. Why? Because foremost Taurus wants to sell their product. If you admit right up front you're never going to buy another one, to the point of leaveing the area where one is being fired, then they're going to dismiss you as a potential customer and treat you as a hostile. You're (as well as everyone else if there is some hidden defect in design) far better of to just present the facts of what happened and let Taurus take the next step. Informing them of the legal proceedings against Firestone is kind of pointless also. Trust me on this, any company with any public exposure is well aware of those things. In effect, you're talking down to them. Putting them on the immediate defensive is almost a 100% guarantee that you'll get a form letter from their legal department as a reply.
IMNSHO, based on the few thousand complaints I've handled over the years, that's probably the best place to end the letter.
I don't want to come across a dissing your letter OK? I know it's hard to not express how,,,well,,PO'ed you are. I can't blame you there. I'd really recommend rewriting everything, and really try to put as positive a slant on it as you can, and play up to their reputation. Believe me, saying you're done with them is a one way ticket to the bottom of the reply pile. From the looks of things (really ugly ), you have a 100% legitimate complaint.
SkySlash,
I think your letter is a little too tough for a "first contact." I don't think that it's time to threaten them directly with legal action yet. Your explanation and documentation of the incident is excellent, but you don't say what it is that you want them to do. State exactly what you want from them, which is presumably a full refund of your purchase price, and express your hopes that the situation does not become adversarial, forcing you to exercise your considerable legal and political resources.
You should also involve the manufacturer of the ammo you were shooting in this correspondence, as Taurus will almost certainly try to blame them for the malfunction. Include the lot number of the ammo, and save whatever you have left for testing at a later time. Also, try to find out which distributor handled the gun and try to involve them as well. The higher up in the food chain you go, the better they'll listen.
By the way, the name of the President of Taurus is Carlos Murgel, and the Executive VP and COO is called Bob Morrison.
I think your letter is a little too tough for a "first contact." I don't think that it's time to threaten them directly with legal action yet. Your explanation and documentation of the incident is excellent, but you don't say what it is that you want them to do. State exactly what you want from them, which is presumably a full refund of your purchase price, and express your hopes that the situation does not become adversarial, forcing you to exercise your considerable legal and political resources.
You should also involve the manufacturer of the ammo you were shooting in this correspondence, as Taurus will almost certainly try to blame them for the malfunction. Include the lot number of the ammo, and save whatever you have left for testing at a later time. Also, try to find out which distributor handled the gun and try to involve them as well. The higher up in the food chain you go, the better they'll listen.
By the way, the name of the President of Taurus is Carlos Murgel, and the Executive VP and COO is called Bob Morrison.
SkySlash,
Gee Bub, sorry to hear about your gun!!! I'm sitting here as I type this with my PT145 at my side!!!! I would forget, at this point, about legal action. My experience with Taurus has been very positive over the years. Yeah, I've gotten a lemon here and there. My M605 .357MAG revolver comes to mind. The first time I took it to the range, the cylinder retaining pin came out and was lost!! I sent the gun back to Taurus. They promised to fix it and send it back to me in three weeks. 21 days later it arrived at my door. It has been perfect ever since!! Give Taurus a chance before you call out the legal attack dogs. As touching the trust issue, by all means, if you do not trust Taurus guns, then get something else. For a gun that is about the same size as the PT111, I would recommend the Glock 26!!! That is what I carried before my loving wife confiscated it for her own!!! I trust my Tauri, but I have never heard of this happening. I am indeed saddened that you have had so catastrophic an experience that you have lost confidance in a fine company that supports our freedoms... from Brazil!! But, so be it!!! Try the Glock. I think you will like it. I think I will take my G30 out of the safe now...
Gee Bub, sorry to hear about your gun!!! I'm sitting here as I type this with my PT145 at my side!!!! I would forget, at this point, about legal action. My experience with Taurus has been very positive over the years. Yeah, I've gotten a lemon here and there. My M605 .357MAG revolver comes to mind. The first time I took it to the range, the cylinder retaining pin came out and was lost!! I sent the gun back to Taurus. They promised to fix it and send it back to me in three weeks. 21 days later it arrived at my door. It has been perfect ever since!! Give Taurus a chance before you call out the legal attack dogs. As touching the trust issue, by all means, if you do not trust Taurus guns, then get something else. For a gun that is about the same size as the PT111, I would recommend the Glock 26!!! That is what I carried before my loving wife confiscated it for her own!!! I trust my Tauri, but I have never heard of this happening. I am indeed saddened that you have had so catastrophic an experience that you have lost confidance in a fine company that supports our freedoms... from Brazil!! But, so be it!!! Try the Glock. I think you will like it. I think I will take my G30 out of the safe now...
What Ammo??!!!!!
Skyslash,
First, I'm glad that you discovered the failure, and didn't get hurt, but your branding of an entire manufacturer's line over one failed firearm is disturbing.
I've heard of failures with almost every brand of firearm out there. Remember the exploding Glock .40s? Yet folks still buy and recommend them. Remember the several Navy Seals that took broken Beretta 92 slides to the face when firing their pistols? Yet the Beretta 92 is still carried by the military, and very popular on this board. Many have complained about cracks in their P-99 frames, yet I don't see a lot of Walther bashing. Or how about the NJ State Trooper that died in a gun battle, because he was left defenseless when the firing pin broke in his P7. Best not ever buy an H&K.
There are tens of thousands of Millennium pistols out there, yet this is the very first catastrophic failure I've heard of. I would conclude that your pistol was a "lemon", and is not reflective of the vast majority of Millenniums. If this was truly a design flaw, there would have been more failures by now.
One thing you never told us. What ammo have you been shooting through the pistol? Any +P? Any hand loads? Any hot & inconsistent Wolf? Any Aquila? You need to be honest here, as it could affect the safety of others.
Don't get me wrong, as the warning is greatly appreciated. I always check frames and slides for cracks, lose or missing screws/pins, etc., before firing. This is just one more thing to check.
Skyslash,
First, I'm glad that you discovered the failure, and didn't get hurt, but your branding of an entire manufacturer's line over one failed firearm is disturbing.
I've heard of failures with almost every brand of firearm out there. Remember the exploding Glock .40s? Yet folks still buy and recommend them. Remember the several Navy Seals that took broken Beretta 92 slides to the face when firing their pistols? Yet the Beretta 92 is still carried by the military, and very popular on this board. Many have complained about cracks in their P-99 frames, yet I don't see a lot of Walther bashing. Or how about the NJ State Trooper that died in a gun battle, because he was left defenseless when the firing pin broke in his P7. Best not ever buy an H&K.
There are tens of thousands of Millennium pistols out there, yet this is the very first catastrophic failure I've heard of. I would conclude that your pistol was a "lemon", and is not reflective of the vast majority of Millenniums. If this was truly a design flaw, there would have been more failures by now.
One thing you never told us. What ammo have you been shooting through the pistol? Any +P? Any hand loads? Any hot & inconsistent Wolf? Any Aquila? You need to be honest here, as it could affect the safety of others.
Don't get me wrong, as the warning is greatly appreciated. I always check frames and slides for cracks, lose or missing screws/pins, etc., before firing. This is just one more thing to check.
This is the kind of feedback I was hoping for, thank you!
I used several different name brands of factory loaded 115-124gr. ammunition. I don't reload ammunition, and I only fired the ammunition that I personally purchased through the gun. I used ammo by Federal, Winchester, and Speer.
-SS
I used several different name brands of factory loaded 115-124gr. ammunition. I don't reload ammunition, and I only fired the ammunition that I personally purchased through the gun. I used ammo by Federal, Winchester, and Speer.
-SS
I would also echo the earlier sentiments regarding your letter. It is well worded, concise, not overly descriptive yet not leaving out the details....however, it was lacking in a conclusive point, and I also think it was a bit too strong. While I wholeheartedly respect the danger of the situation (and am thankfull you noticed the failure in time!), and I agree completely with your decision to avoid Taurus in the future.....you overstepped yourself.
The conclusion of your letter lacks an objective. What do you want? What are you looking for from them? I understand you want to speak with a representative on the situation, but you should have made clear what would be a satisfactory resolution to the situation. Did you want a refund, did you want an investigation on their part? This leaves them with doubt as to what your motive is. Couple this with the threats of legal action, and it can be perceived that you are easily trying to make a buck off them, even though you are not. It comes down to the old saying of honey and vinegar. Your statements make the implication that it is a design flaw, when this may not be the case. You mention the issue of Ford/Firestone, and hurl threats of legal action. From the perspective of their CS department, have you given them any reason to accomodate your demands? Looking only at your letter from an objective perspective, how interested in working with the company toward a solution do you think you are?
Another question would be, do you mean what you say. If you are not willing to back up your claims, you may have lost the possibility of recompense from the company. Do you have the representation and funds to conduct research, open inquiries, subpoena company documents, and battle them over this issue? Do you have contact with enough owners of the specific model with similar issues to begin a class action suit? They may very well respond that they will refer this issue to their legal department, and all further communication will be with their lawyers. They could conceivably use your letter as evidence to how generally uncooperative, beligerant, and desirous of a legal battle you are. Is this what you want? I respect how upset you are, and how dangerous the situation could have become, but cordiality could very well have resolved this situation.
I do wish you the best of luck with this!
The conclusion of your letter lacks an objective. What do you want? What are you looking for from them? I understand you want to speak with a representative on the situation, but you should have made clear what would be a satisfactory resolution to the situation. Did you want a refund, did you want an investigation on their part? This leaves them with doubt as to what your motive is. Couple this with the threats of legal action, and it can be perceived that you are easily trying to make a buck off them, even though you are not. It comes down to the old saying of honey and vinegar. Your statements make the implication that it is a design flaw, when this may not be the case. You mention the issue of Ford/Firestone, and hurl threats of legal action. From the perspective of their CS department, have you given them any reason to accomodate your demands? Looking only at your letter from an objective perspective, how interested in working with the company toward a solution do you think you are?
Another question would be, do you mean what you say. If you are not willing to back up your claims, you may have lost the possibility of recompense from the company. Do you have the representation and funds to conduct research, open inquiries, subpoena company documents, and battle them over this issue? Do you have contact with enough owners of the specific model with similar issues to begin a class action suit? They may very well respond that they will refer this issue to their legal department, and all further communication will be with their lawyers. They could conceivably use your letter as evidence to how generally uncooperative, beligerant, and desirous of a legal battle you are. Is this what you want? I respect how upset you are, and how dangerous the situation could have become, but cordiality could very well have resolved this situation.
I do wish you the best of luck with this!
Taurus quality
Skyslash:
Sorry to hear about your quality problems; I experienced a cylinder clearance problem problem with a S/S .357 Tracker a few years back and traded it rather than get into the ship and reship dance.
Regarding a CCW weapon I would heartily recommend the G26; better trigger, very accurate, lots of accessories available and after 500 rounds I've not had one hickup. Keislers had these a month ago for $433+shipping. Once you buy a glock I think you'll understand why the enthusiasts feel the way they do about them.
Skyslash:
Sorry to hear about your quality problems; I experienced a cylinder clearance problem problem with a S/S .357 Tracker a few years back and traded it rather than get into the ship and reship dance.
Regarding a CCW weapon I would heartily recommend the G26; better trigger, very accurate, lots of accessories available and after 500 rounds I've not had one hickup. Keislers had these a month ago for $433+shipping. Once you buy a glock I think you'll understand why the enthusiasts feel the way they do about them.
SkySlash,
What Taurus will need to know is what will make you content with this situation. Obviously, you're out the price of the pistol, ammo, and accessories, but you're also out the "value" of the hassle, etc. Since you aren't likely to want another Taurus and they can't replace yours with another make, Taurus is sort of stuck with refunding your money without their legal Beagles getting involved.
If it comes to that, YOUR lawyer will prefer that you not have libeled Taurus or made threats or accusations in any private or public forum such as TFL. Much as I hate to say it, I suggest that you consult with a reputable (!?) Personal Injury trial lawyer, not to represent you, just to sort out your options with you. Most lawyers don't charge for initial consultations, and you might just learn something you didn't know before!
What Taurus will need to know is what will make you content with this situation. Obviously, you're out the price of the pistol, ammo, and accessories, but you're also out the "value" of the hassle, etc. Since you aren't likely to want another Taurus and they can't replace yours with another make, Taurus is sort of stuck with refunding your money without their legal Beagles getting involved.
If it comes to that, YOUR lawyer will prefer that you not have libeled Taurus or made threats or accusations in any private or public forum such as TFL. Much as I hate to say it, I suggest that you consult with a reputable (!?) Personal Injury trial lawyer, not to represent you, just to sort out your options with you. Most lawyers don't charge for initial consultations, and you might just learn something you didn't know before!
In all seriousness, all I want is this:
1) A refund for the firearm and extra magazines I purchased.
2) An apology.
3) Reassurance that Taurus won't brush this under the rug.
I firmly believe that this gun will have a high failure rate due to being constructed with plastic rivets. As a result, I would like to see Taurus fix the defect.
-SS
1) A refund for the firearm and extra magazines I purchased.
2) An apology.
3) Reassurance that Taurus won't brush this under the rug.
I firmly believe that this gun will have a high failure rate due to being constructed with plastic rivets. As a result, I would like to see Taurus fix the defect.
-SS
Well
Yes, your letter is too hostile for a first attempt. But don't be afraid to bring in legal action if you feel it's justified. I had a major problem with CompUSA, they refused to refund me money that they owed and they refused to honor a warranty. After getting the run around for six months I contact my state's AG's office of consumer protection, and did the same in CompUSA's home state. Two weeks after I did I got a call from CompUSA's legal department asking me what would it take for me to cancel my actions. I received a full refund seven days later and a call back from their legal department to verify I had gotten payment. If I had cowered in fear I never would've gotten my money back.
Yes, your letter is too hostile for a first attempt. But don't be afraid to bring in legal action if you feel it's justified. I had a major problem with CompUSA, they refused to refund me money that they owed and they refused to honor a warranty. After getting the run around for six months I contact my state's AG's office of consumer protection, and did the same in CompUSA's home state. Two weeks after I did I got a call from CompUSA's legal department asking me what would it take for me to cancel my actions. I received a full refund seven days later and a call back from their legal department to verify I had gotten payment. If I had cowered in fear I never would've gotten my money back.
SS,
Then I would edit the letter to Taurus to say after a recitation of the facts:
"In all seriousness, all I want is this:
1) A refund for the firearm and extra magazines I purchased.
2) An apology.
3) Reassurance that Taurus won't brush this under the rug.
I firmly believe that this gun will have a high failure rate due to being constructed with plastic rivets. As a result, I would like to see Taurus fix the defect. "
I would expect a rapid positive response! If not, well then....
Then I would edit the letter to Taurus to say after a recitation of the facts:
"In all seriousness, all I want is this:
1) A refund for the firearm and extra magazines I purchased.
2) An apology.
3) Reassurance that Taurus won't brush this under the rug.
I firmly believe that this gun will have a high failure rate due to being constructed with plastic rivets. As a result, I would like to see Taurus fix the defect. "
I would expect a rapid positive response! If not, well then....
Wow! Great letter.
I agree with the suggestions to tone down the letter if you want this solved quickly. Don't mention legal action. Diplomacy first. The most effective route is that of communicating with a friend who let you down. Tell them what they already think of themselves - recite their ads back to them - "high quality, reasonable price, innovative designs". Imagine you are doing an old friend a favor by showing them a problem and letting them fix their design/manufacture. They can do you, an old loyal friend, a favor by sending your money back. Although you are a little leery now, you hope to buy many many more of their guns in the future. (Yes, it's a lie, but you believed it and liked it when I said you wrote a great letter ;-)
For me, the goal would be to get $$ back so I could buy a Sig, not go on some comsumer advocacy crusade. Choose your battles.
Apology? What good does it do you?
(Heck, you were the one stupid enough to buy a Taurus. You should apologize for that. Exactly how dumb are you? - now notice your own reaction to this obviouly hostile accusation by some ill informed bozo - you don't want that response from them. Doesn't help you get your $$ back. ;-)
Reassurance of redesign? I'd cast this only in terms of knowing what the problem was, how it is rectified/prevented, and how it will boost your flagging confidence in Taurus products so you may join them again. They will write you off as another loonie if you think you know more about gun design than they do. They probably get 100's of letters from real loonies every day.
Good luck getting your $$$ back quickly. Let us know what happens.
M.
I agree with the suggestions to tone down the letter if you want this solved quickly. Don't mention legal action. Diplomacy first. The most effective route is that of communicating with a friend who let you down. Tell them what they already think of themselves - recite their ads back to them - "high quality, reasonable price, innovative designs". Imagine you are doing an old friend a favor by showing them a problem and letting them fix their design/manufacture. They can do you, an old loyal friend, a favor by sending your money back. Although you are a little leery now, you hope to buy many many more of their guns in the future. (Yes, it's a lie, but you believed it and liked it when I said you wrote a great letter ;-)
For me, the goal would be to get $$ back so I could buy a Sig, not go on some comsumer advocacy crusade. Choose your battles.
Apology? What good does it do you?
(Heck, you were the one stupid enough to buy a Taurus. You should apologize for that. Exactly how dumb are you? - now notice your own reaction to this obviouly hostile accusation by some ill informed bozo - you don't want that response from them. Doesn't help you get your $$ back. ;-)
Reassurance of redesign? I'd cast this only in terms of knowing what the problem was, how it is rectified/prevented, and how it will boost your flagging confidence in Taurus products so you may join them again. They will write you off as another loonie if you think you know more about gun design than they do. They probably get 100's of letters from real loonies every day.
Good luck getting your $$$ back quickly. Let us know what happens.
M.
Taurus has vowed to make this right. They called me and apologized and promised to investigate this issue. Whether they do or not will remain to be seen, but they are meeting my expectations 100% and that speaks well of them IMHO.
They told me they will issue a refund for the firearm, including the cost of additional magazines and accessories for the weapon. They also intend to pay for the shipping cost of the gun, and arrange with FedEx to have it picked up.
All I have to do is fax them copies of the receipts and they will issue the refund check.
I am very impressed with their customer service, but I will remain wary of their products in the future.
-SS
They told me they will issue a refund for the firearm, including the cost of additional magazines and accessories for the weapon. They also intend to pay for the shipping cost of the gun, and arrange with FedEx to have it picked up.
All I have to do is fax them copies of the receipts and they will issue the refund check.
I am very impressed with their customer service, but I will remain wary of their products in the future.
-SS