I think we are all overlooking something potentially really great.

Henry,

I'll look into what you've said and ask Dane Burns about it.

By the way, for the gentleman who asked about who could build a gun in this caliber, I would send you to Dane Burns at http://www.burnscustom.com. He is the only one I know of who is currently building defense gun in this caliber.
 
Thank you, Sensop.

------------------
Let's just hope we don't get Gore'd in November.
I don't know about everyone else, but I'd much
rather get some Bush.
 
is there a web site where i can find out a lot about this round?
i dont know much about it and would liek to learn more.
thanks all.
 
I guess it is no secret that I am partial to the 9x23.

Lets clear up a couple of things. Brass and ammo is easily available from ANY Winchester supplier. Some dealers just don't want to work very hard I guess. I buy brass from Black Hills Shooters Supply. Yes it is expensive and it only comes primed but NO OTHER BRASS (pistol) is even close to being as strong.

There is a reason Dick Heinie, Jim Grathwaite and I all have personal carry guns in 9x23.

I was asked to address Mr. Bowman's comments.

First his CUP figures are incorrect. Cup runs lower than PSI and these are the figures Winchester gives for there white box and Silver tip loads that run right at 1475fps from my 5" guns. 46K psi. Nowhere close to 50K CUP.(ie 55K psi) The brass maxs at 50K psi though, which is a medium rifle load in something like a 30/06. Winchester claims the 9x23 as THE strongest case made period. That is because it has a patented dbl blend web.

Typical figures for 9x23 are 46K psi or 41K CUP.

Rifle primers? No question if you are loading full house loads you want them. The primer is the weak link in this case. The factory ammo uses rifle primers for just that reason.

Primer shaving? Typically the guns and barrels are not made to the correct specs......hence pressure problems. A 9x23 is NOT a parts gun!!! Springfield and Colt made their runs from 38 Supers.......not the best way to do it but it was cheap.

The CZ/Whitness action is not strong enough to take a full house 9x23...it will have reliability problems and then break for several reasons.

A quality 1911 is no problem. 45 ACP runs at 20K psi, 9mm @33K psi, 38 Super factory @35K psi, 10mm and 40 @ 33K psi.

The differnce is the case of the 9x23 was built fromm the get go to handle the pressure. The 1911 is up to the abuse IF SET UP CORRECTLY. SPRINGS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT! I use a 16.5 and 18# spring to shoot major loads in a 5" carry gun.

BTW major loads in a Super are running in the mid 40K psi range also. The supported barrels are mandatory with a Super case to avoid disasterious case failure. Not so with a 9x23. The VAST majority of 9x23 guns I have built are all *unramped* barrels as did the Colt offereing in 9x23. That barrel design is more reliable and clearly safe with any load a 9x23 case can shoot.

I have fired 10s of 1000s of rounds of full house 9x23 in many different guns with no problems. You are not going to blow a case. A double charge will in fact blow a primer....not the case.

Its only failing in IPSC is that the brass is expensive and very few smiths know how to build to the high pressure and small rim.......nothing more.

Hope that helps. There are a number of issues not discussed in this thread that support the 9x23 in a 1911 format. It is worth takng the time to read the 9x23 info on my site and the article in GUNRAG if you have more interest. If you have more questions feel free to email me in private. Or notify me a quetsion is on this board.

John Rico (CP) and myself are doing 10mm Glock conversions to 9x23 but they aren't perfect yet. 9x23 will work on a 1911 better than any 357 Sig. Haven't seen ANY gun with the Sig round keep up yet on my chrono :) Besides you get more ammo with the 9mm case than the 40 case.....seems like a step backwards to me.

All that said if I only had one 1911 I would have a 45ACP. Better be a very GOOD reloader if you want to play with this round and have a smith with his **** together. My rule of thumb is if the guy aint got a 9x23 himself and shoots it regularly.....find a smith who does, because I can guarantee your gun will not run long term.

Regards,
Dane
 
Gentlemen, please, let me add to tlhelmer's above request. How about a little historical info on this cartridge? Its introduction, for some reason, was completely off my radar screen. When did it first appear? Who made it and why? Seems to be an ISPC thing, anyone of authority ever recommend it for defense?
 
It looks as though 9x23mm runs in line with my theory of pistol ammunition.
I am intrigued.
And on a 1911 platform as well.

Also, notice that this cartridge would be a fantastic carbine round.

If someone were to rechamber certain 1911 carbine kits (CCU)to this bombastic round, you would have a superb pistol - carbine outfit with ammuntion commonality.

9x23mm looks commendable.



[This message has been edited by Shin-Tao (edited October 16, 2000).]
 
I would just like to take this opportunity to thank Dane Burns for participating in our thread. Just so everyone is aware, Dane has a reputation for building one hell of a gun, particularly in the 9x23mm caliber. Anyone looking for a custom 1911 in this caliber or .45 should visit his site at http://www.burnscustom.com. On top of that, he just so happens to be a nice guy, too.

------------------
Let's just hope we don't get Gore'd in November.
I don't know about everyone else, but I'd much
rather get some Bush.
 
Dane Burns

Like I said before most factory 357 sig ammo is going between 1430 and 1450 in my 4.5 inch glock 31. The same loads in my 6 inch glock 24 average between 1530 and 1550. I have reloads running at 1600 fps in the 6 inch glock thats just as good if not slightly better than the 9x23.
PAT

------------------
I intend to go into harms way.
 
Here are a few reasons for the 9x23's lack of popularity:

1) For now, the only pistol it works well in is a custom built 1911. There isn't a big market for $800+ 1911s and most of the buyers of such pistols are .45 fans. Someone with a casual interest in the 9x23 isn't going to be able to try it without a big investment.

2) The .38 Super already has a lock on the "unlimited" racegun market and the 9x23 doesn't meet the .40 caliber minimum rule of many of the "limited" gun game classes.

3) There's too much competition in the "hot 9" field. Until there's a consensus on the best way to improve on the .38 Super, the existence of very similar cartridges like the .38 Super Comp is going to create confusion and uncertainty.

4) Winchester (Olin) teamed up with Colt to introduce the 9x23 and one half of that partnership has taken a turn for the worse.
 
Oh Man!!! I thought you were going to talk about the University of Oklahoma Football team. Go Sooners!!! Beat Nebraska!!!
 
The 357 Sig is a interesting round. But let us put it into perspective here. It is made for only 9mm size guns. It limits ammo to the same amount available in a 40 cal. gun because of case size.

Everything else being equal, I would rather have bullet weight. Everthing else is equal in a 357 so I would take the 40 with a 135 load at 1350fps and lower the pressure.

While you seem to think you are getting some good velocity, the 9x23 can and does beat your figures across the board by a little margin. No brag, just fact.

Better yet it does it with 9mm size cases that will work in a 1911. I have no interest in a round that is not as reliable and the short cases are NOT as relaible in a 1911 platform.

The Sig is a intersting diverion in a 9mm size gun. But most of what you can do with a 357 Sig can also be done and has with a 9x21 or a 356TSW and you get more rounds to boot. IMO the 357 is just another flavor of the month.......even though some major departments have bought the idea and it will continue to make in roads becasue it hits the magic rules, 357 mag performance and a 9mm size gun. But it's design form the start is poor IMO.

The difference is the 9x23 is almost a perfect design match for the 1911. Max power, max rounds in the 1911 design for a almost perfect balance.

Just personal opinion swayed by the fact that I build 1911 guns for a living. In other words if it doesn't work in a 1911 I am not too interested.
 
Dane Burns
I was not knocking the 9x23 and for 1911's it is a better choice. However I am not much of a 1911 fan I sold all mine. The 357 sig beats all the rounds you mentioned in power and in accuracy. The 357 sig is simply the best round for 9mm sized guns period. Its more accurate and powerfull than the 40 and its more powerfull than the 9mm. The other unknown rounds like the 9x21 are just overloaded 9mm's designed to beat the rules in ISPC. They have no use beyond that. The 9x23 is only equal to the 357 sig in equal barrel lengths if you can prove me wrong do so.
PAT

------------------
I intend to go into harms way.
 
The fact that it is availiable, so far, only in snooty custom 1911s, does limit the round's popularity.
If it were obtainable in a Glock and CZ type platform, I'd be acquiring one real soon.
If there was a CZ97 in this chambering I'd be extremely excited.
Someone needs to make a plain-vanilla affordable 1911 clone for the round. Then you'd see sales increase.
There are a lot of shooters that would be interested if some basic defense arms were offered.
The people that make the CCU carbine conversion unit need to make one chambered for this round as well. Adding a bolt buffer would be wise.
 
Many moons ago I bumped into a gent at the range who had a pair of Coonan .357s -- positively magnificent pistols, and I was really diggin' the idea of an auto in a magnum caliber (wound up buying a .44 Mag Desert Eagle instead).

My favorite pistol, and the one I shoot the best, is my P226 -- in 9mm. I shoot Baretta and Browning 9mm's almost as well (something about the caliber? who knows). Only "problem" I have with 9mm is that it isn't the man-stopper that the .45 is (IMO -- no religous wars, please), which is why my two carry guns (P245 and SA Compact) are .45s, even though I don't shoot them as well as my P226.

I recently bought a Para Ordnance P-14 -- nice pistol, needs some tuning, but I like the idea of 14 rounds of .45. I can shoot it almost as well as my P226 (something about the caliber? size? who knows).

The idea of a pistol with the ergonomics and high capacity (20 rounds?) of my P-14, power factor of a Coonan, and shootability of my P226 is more than intriguing...


------------------
The value of my life, my Rights, and those of my family are incalculable;
your life and your Rights, should you choose to threaten mine, are worth exactly $1.79 --
delivered 230gr at a time.
 
Arizona,

No advertisement, just thought it was a round we should all take a hard look at. I consider our group here at thefiringline.com to be a pretty elite bunch, and I was honestly interested in everyone's opinion. The simple fact is that the 9x23mm round is a great topic for a group like this, especially considering it might be--dare I say it--an even better option for the 1911 platform than the .45 acp for serious shooters. If my posting helps to get some new interest going for the round, so much the better. I'm not a gunsmith. I do however want to have a gun built in this caliber sometime in the near future. Some of the most knowledgable shooters and gun builders in the world carry 9x23mm guns as their personal insurance policy. I just thought it warranted some discussion.

------------------
Let's just hope we don't get Gore'd in November.
I don't know about everyone else, but I'd much
rather get some Bush.
 
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