I think we are all overlooking something potentially really great.

V

viper

New member
Hey Guys,

Is it just me or should the 9x23mm round be WAY more popular than it is? Let's look at the stats:

1)The round is tailor-made for the 1911 platform in that it is, according to several experts, a more naturally reliable feeder in the 1911 than the .45 cal. for which the pistol was originally designed. Apparently, the 9x23mm feeds straighter into the chamber and uses a tapered case like the 9x19mm.

2)You get 10 + 1 capacity in a standard magazine as opposed to 8 + 1. That's two more rounds in the gun to save your butt.

3)It has true, full-power .357 magnum ballistics and averages 100 fps faster than the .357 sig.

4)Better penetration against soft armor and hard targets(like vehicles and windshields)than the .45.

5)Shoots flatter and further than the .45.

6)Has less recoil and can be shot more quickly than the .45. Apparently, if you have two guys of equal speed and skill, the guy with the 9x23 will be able to engage targets faster than the guy with the .45.

7)Cheaper to reload than the .45.

So, what's the deal? Why isn't this cartridge catching on like proverbial wildfire with 1911 buffs? Is it that 1911 guys tend to be traditionalists and not open to what might be a more advantageous cartridge for the platform in many respects? Even if you just consider the triumvarate of better reliability, more rounds in the magazine, and true .357 ballistics, one would think this round would garner a lot of converts and people willing to give it a try.

Now, if someone is going to argue the fact that there aren't a lot of manufacturers making loads for it right now, I would counter that that is because the demand is simply not there at present. The manufacturers would provide if the demand were there.

By the way, apparently, some of the Special Operations groups have been looking at this round very closely. Even the father of modern pistolcraft, the great Jeff Cooper himself--the man known as the single greatest proponent of the .45-- really likes 9x23 and is impressed with its capability as a combat cartridge.

I'd be interested to hear people's thoughts on this one.

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Let's just hope we don't get Gore'd in November.
I don't know about everyone else, but I'd much
rather get some Bush.
 
Viper,

I agree with you that the 9x23 is a cartridge that gets overlooked too easily. I would be satisfied in using it to defend myself.

Mike
 
The ONLY problems with the 9x23 is the lack of factory ammo and factory weapons. Both can be solved by reloading and custom guns (as well as used Colts and SAs) but it's still a problem for most folks. I'm planning on getting a 9x23 soon, and then get a 10mm slide to go along with it.

Personally, I dream of Kimber coming out with a Pro-Carry in 9x23 (or even .38 Super). Lightweight, high velocity, max legal capacity, and thin? Hello, dream gun.

By the way, from the looks of the info you posted, you've been going through Dane Burns' website, right?
 
Yes, it's a great round, no doubt about it. But so is the 10mm, and it's not really as popular as it should be after 15 years either. Just because something is better doesn't mean it will be successful. I hope it is, I'd like to see more advances in firearms like we had in the early half of this century, but what with the "antigun" climate being so strong right now, I fear for new and better firearms and calibers.
 
Thanks for the responses so far. Yes, I've been going through Dane Burn's site. I'm actually going to have him build a gun for me in 9x23. Dane certainly comes across as knowing his sh*#!. However, Dane is not my only source on this stuff. I've questioned quite a number of people and they all have basically coraburated Dane's position.

Notice, by the way, that there have only been 3 responses/posts to my initial posting. This is what I'm talking about. Firingliners of all people should be more interested in discussing this round than I'm getting from them here. Even if it's only to say "Gee whiz, I didn't know that". Most people think 9x23 is a competition cartridge. What it really is, is a martial/combat cartridge and may be a better way to go in the 1911.

------------------
Let's just hope we don't get Gore'd in November.
I don't know about everyone else, but I'd much
rather get some Bush.
 
Oh yeah, two more things--

1)The supply of factory produced 9x23mm would take care of itself if makers started promoting the round and people started asking for it. I mean, Jesus, look how the .40 Liberty got started.

2)The reason 10mm never gained that much popularity is several fold. First, it was destroying the only guns available for it at the time of its introduction and the first company making a gun for it(Bren Ten) went out of business quickly--the gun not holding up didn't help. Second, the 10mm is the ballistic equivalent of a .41 magnum and basically has more blast and recoil than most people want in a combat gun. Glock has changed some of this perspective, as their Glock 20 and 29 are so good. Finally, 10mm is relatively expensive next to a 9mm cartridge, both off the shelf and in terms of reloading. 9x23mm simply has more things going for it and a better all around portfolio for combat(for the average person) than does the 10mm.

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Let's just hope we don't get Gore'd in November.
I don't know about everyone else, but I'd much
rather get some Bush.
 
Viper,

I agree with you, lock, stock and barrel. I've wondered the same thing about this caliber. Its a shame that LE didn't go with this caliber from the start. That 9x23 is one awesome round. It offers everything that these new hypervelocity bottlenecked rounds offer, with more case strength and reloading ease. A straight or tapered wall case doesn't need to worry about shoulder sizing, or need case trimming like a little "rifle" cartridge does. Nothing against the 357 SIG, 400 Corbon, etc. They sound like great defensive cartridges, and probably do just what they are made to do. Its just that I'd rather get similar ballistics from something a little less 'troublesome' to reload. I don't have a 9x23 yet, but want to get one. Got to shoot one for the first time and was thoroughly impressed. I'll try to post my observations next week when I have more time.

Viper,
E-mail me if you want more info on a set up that I've discovered for the 9x23. EQUALIZERplus@netscape.net Give me a few days for a response, since I'll be out of town for a couple days.
 
Just yesterday I was thinking of the ideal 10+1 gun here CA and of course the 9X23 came to mind. How much does it cost to reload for this cartridge ?
 
at the risk of sounding like the computer/software weenie that I am, it comes down to instaled base (another way of saying 'chicken & egg').

.45, 9mm, .38 spl, etc all have significant followings because of military/civil gov't commitment & propagation, not necessarily due to technical excellence (bang/$, all other things being equal). There's not much to argue about the performance of the 9x23, but it grew up in an esoteric backwater (i.e. among competitive shooters/gun nutz), and unless some mil/gov't org. buys in, the mil/industiral complex (old morphology) won't support it.

We're in a confused market right now, and while that means opportunity for some, others will stick to the tried & true, as one can argue about the maistream viability of .40 S&W (heavy police buy-in), .357 SIG (sort of heavy police/gov't buy-in), and 10mm (an orphan, maybe). These rounds have all been around at least 10 years, but are they mainstram? YMMV. M2
 
Can't say just yet, MTAA, but the price of brass, however expensive, HAS come down from what I remember years ago. Depending on how you load, you should be using less propellant than 45 and the bullets are 9mm, so about as cheap as it gets for a defensive round. The small rifle primers that are recommended are the same price as the small pistol primers. You can use 9mm dies to reload, but I think RCBS makes a specific die set for 9x23. (Maybe someone can explain the difference between the two die sets).

The most expensive thing I've found about reloading is loosing the brass. No matter how low I cut the grass, I ALWAYS loose brass when shooting outdoors. Sorry that I don't have the prices in front of me or the time to look it up right now. Just wanted to let you know that IF you plan to reload, it should be little more than reloading cheap 9mm after you have the initial set up cost and brass.

Best regards,

EQ

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"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Jesus Christ--Originator of RKBA and first weapon. (Luke 22:36, see John 3:15-18)
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"Reasonable gun law?............There's No such critter!" --EQ
 
Hey, is Winchester the only "factory" ammo manufacturer for this? I can't find it on Triton, Corbon, Remington or Proload websites.
 
Well, Viper, you just sold me!

I would like a 10+1 round Commander.

The 9x23 probably would have better ballistics than the .45 out of the 4.25" barrel.

Questions: Can I reload 9x23 with my 9mm dies an my SQB?

I already have 9mm dies and components. It sounds like it would be very easy to get into!

My machine cannot reload .357 Sig and I don't really want to reload it anyway. But, the straight-walled 9x23 sounds like it would be very easy to reload, converting my machine easily from 9mm to 9x23 with just a couple of adjustments.

I am sure I can find brass........but where do I get a gun (and magazines) for this round??

[This message has been edited by DerGlockenpooper (edited October 13, 2000).]
 
Yeah I liked what I saw in the 9x23 also. I've even shot Jim Garthwaite's 1911 in 9x23 which he carries now. I loved it.

I came this close [--] to having Dane Burns build me a 9x23 while having another smith build me one because I like to have at least two pistols being similar. But then I started looking for factory loads, because I haven't been bit by the reloading bug yet, and couldn't find anything anywhere. None at any of the big gun shows (+1200 tables), small shows, I had two local gunshops one owned by a friend put out their feelers for me for some Winchester white box and nothing, I had Eric at ammoman try to locate some for me....none again. He refered me to another ammo distributor.... nadda again. I told my suppliers I was willing to buy at least 5000 rounds of the stuff, possibly more if other 9x23 shooters were interested, and still nothing. It was like the round didn't even exist.

So I stuck to the 45.

If the factory loading start popping up again I would love to have a custom pistol built up for the 9x23.

But what good is a gun without any ammo?

Ross T.
 
viper
Only one point to contest. The 357 sig actually goes just as fast as the 9x23 if the guns have an equal barrel length. The problem is the data your looking at compares a 9x23 fired in a 5 inch 1911 to a 357 sig fired in a 3.8 inch sig 229. My glock 31 launches most 125 grian 357 sig ammo between 1430 and 1450. My carry load is a 125 grain gold dot at 1430 from the glocks 4.5 inch barrel. My 6 inch 24 will push the same load at 1540. Barrel length adds the speed on fast in these high intenisty rounds. The only draw back to the 9x23 is it needs a 45 frame to launch it. COnversly the 357 sigs weakness is it will always have less capacity due to its fatter case. I would like to build a glock 20 in 9x23. Barsto has barrel that allow 40 glocks to work with the 9mm a 9x23 should work in a 10mm.
PAT

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I intend to go into harms way.
 
Interesting, you learn something new everyday. I always thought that 9x23 was just one of those bizarre IPSC race gun calibers for hard core shooters.

.357 out of a 10 round single stack 1911? Sounds good to me. Just out of my income bracket. :)
 
Attributed to the late Bob Crowder, Captain, Texas Ranger Company B:

Rookie Cop: Uh, Cap'n, why do you carry a forty-five automatic?

Crowder: Because Colt doesn't make a forty-SIX automatic, son.


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---The Second Amendment ensures the rest of the Bill of Rights---
 
45ACP is just a classic that can't be improved upon. There is an old saying, "If it aint broke, don't fix it!"
 
An exellent thread on the 9X23 yet nobody mentioned it's falling from favor at IPSC or the big problem of running 50,000cup loads in a gun designed for 20,000cup. On paper the caliber looks good, I tryed it in an EAA Witness and a Colt 1911. Both guns would have an occasional stoppage from the primers loading up the firing pin hole with NIB Winchester Silvertips and White Box ball. Several smiths said to use reloads with rifle primers? Simply put, the 1911s tipping barrel design won't hold up, the smiths balance the lockup on recoil springs not the locking mechanism Browning designed. Ponder what's going to happen when one blows, I've seen .45acps and .38 Supers blow at much less pressure doing damage to both gun and shooter. IMO 50,000cup belongs in a rifle..henry
 
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