I Think This Needs Said Again....

The manner in which members of the military carry their weapons, be they Israeli or American, has little or no bearing on what is prudent for civilians.
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Well, it has and it hasn't. Like civillians and unlike the police, the military carry their pistols a lot and handle them daily but have a need to use them extremely rarely and use them only in dire emergency. So, they will take a bit of extra safety when handling the pistol in exchange for a bit slower draw time when and if they actually need the pistol. The difference is about half a second - not short, but not so long that it'd render the gun pointless, and it reduces the chance of accidents. Basically, a tradeoff. I wouldn't dissuade people from it, as long as they know the ins and outs of it.

If you're robbed at gunpoint and have not already drawn, there's no wonder bullet which is going to prevent the bad guy from squeezing the trigger at that point anyway.
 
Ok so just to clarify about the military thing. That status changes quite frequently overseas and often on FOBs or COBs the status is red meaning one in the chamber whether that is what has officially been put out or not. An actual base generally has multiple layers of security on the perimeter and being in red status isn't necessary. In fact it is generally safer. If you have ever been around non American NATO troops you would be surprised how many NDs they have on a regular basis. The response time to changing status is extremely fast and obviously American troops general do it without need of instruction if sh*t hits the fan.

That being said, nowadays I carry with one in the chamber because why not? If I trust the firearm I'm carrying (which I damn well better) and know how it functions I have no reason not to have one in the chamber. I don know quite a few people that do not carry with a round in the chamber though. All personal preference.
 
Blue Hats ?? Third world countries often cannot afford to pay their troops but when they work for the UN the UN pays ! Don't expect trained troops .
Many here in the USA spend their money on community relations rather than training cops .Yet one ND can wipe out a years CR work.
TRAINING !!
 
Blue Hats ?? Third world countries often cannot afford to pay their troops but when they work for the UN the UN pays ! Don't expect trained troops .
Many here in the USA spend their money on community relations rather than training cops .Yet one ND can wipe out a years CR work.
TRAINING !!
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Yes, although it should be noted that UN and NATO are two completely different organizations. NATO troops are trained regular military troops from countries that fall under NATO command and structure. It is still surprising to see how many of those countries do not properly train their troops.

But I digress, don't want to get off topic of the actually subject of the post.
 
For folks who are afraid of their own loaded guns, maybe they should just carry a club.
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Unless you have already "fixed bayonets", until you load the chamber, all your gun is, is a club!

This argument has been going on, probably for about as long as there have been repeating firearms.

While the rest of the world is usually too polite to say it out loud where we can hear it, it seems clear enough to me that they consider the US obsessed with having a handgun instantly capable of firing as soon as we touch it. And having the fastest possible reload.

Virtually all the European handguns designed before the US civilian market was the dominant factor do NOT have their controls in the most practical places for "draw and fire" or for the most rapid reloads. Some designs would be good for one, but not so good for the other. I can't think of any that was good for both unless it was either designed by an American or intended for the US market, primarily. Even the modern SIG P220 came with a heel type mag release, originally.

I do think it is a fallacy to automatically assume that what a military or police agency does is the correct thing for you, and I KNOW it is an error for you to decide what is the correct thing for ME to do.

I did get a kick out of the "cowboy" comment. Anyone who calls you a "cowboy" because you have one under the hammer, doesn't know much about smart cowboys. The might know something about the dumb ones, the ones who limped, because their horse "shot them" with the round under the hammer, but I doubt it...
 
I don't know if the guy is still around but in the late 1980s to early 1990s I worked a few times with a guy who did private security. He was a Captain and I was a Lieutenant. We were working a site and he told me that he never loaded his duty weapon. He said he retired from the Army and never carried a loaded pistol. He said there was always time to load it if it were needed. After that shift I informed my Branch Manager (Major) of what was said and that I would no longer work with this fool in the field. He was not with the company long after that. Things can happen faster than most people can imagine. You don't have time to get ready. All you have time for is to react. The time to get ready is before you leave home.
 
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I understand what I call the "European" or "military" mindset about carrying a handgun. I don't agree, but I understand.

Soldiers have time to prepare before going into battle. Guards, do NOT.

The luggage cases called military holsters (WWII era in particular) are typical. Full flap, snap, button or in some cases buckle closures, these are not in any way fast to use in an emergency. The US flap holster is better than many but its still a flap holster.

Likewise, an awkward safety is not as major an issue, in combat as it is for a defensive pistol. Some military pistol designers apparently felt that the safety would/should be operated with the non trigger hand, or did not feel the safety needed to be operated with the hand in a firing grip at the same time....

Things have gotten better, in general, but old designs and attitudes still exist.

If your Captain were leading troops in battle (and not expect actual combat himself) I suppose not loading his pistol wouldn't be a huge risk.

On the other hand, if he met a "sapper in the wire" on his way to the latrine one night, he might really wish he had loaded his pistol beforehand....

Security guards, (including soldiers on guard duty) are there so they CAN meet the unexpected attack. Not having a fully loaded (and chambered) weapon at hand in that situation is simply idiocy.

Civilian self defense has much more in common with guard duty than it does with infantry combat. Conclusions about what is the proper state of readiness for your weapon should be obvious.
 
Sorry... "guilty"(?) of this myself. Still pretty new to concealed carrying, and my holster is still pretty tight. Think I need to work into some type of comfort zone with this.
 
Carrying a concealed firearm without a round chambered is like getting your car and pulling your seat belt across your lap but not buckling it. Then saying "if I'm about to get in an accident I'll just reach down real quick and buckle it".
 
I doubt your gun is beeping all the time unless a round is in the chamber, so not the best of comparisons ;)

The irritating beeping is half of the reason I buckle my seatbelt, second part being, if the police spot me without a seatbelt on I'll have to pay a fine and I don't really feel like giving them more of my money.
 
Branko said:
The irritating beeping is half of the reason I buckle my seatbelt, second part being, if the police spot me without a seatbelt on I'll have to pay a fine and I don't really feel like giving them more of my money.
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Buckling your seat belt is the simplest and most effective thing you can do to greatly decrease your chance of injury or death in the event of a car accident. If the beeping and the threat of a fine are the only things keeping you from riding without a seat belt, then that's the most ignorant thing I've read here in a while...
 
First the seat belt! A visitor from Ohio, turned into me, in my paid for 2008 Jeep. Cutting across the two lane divided Avenue I was driving on, Boxing Day 2015. Basically a head on impact.

My seat belt worked as advertised, both air bags activated, my Jeep Cherokee Laredo was totaled, I was still injured.

No seat belt I would most likely have died.

The chambered round! "But, the Israelis carry like that." not so Sir, since they went to the Glock pistols, El Al Airlines, and Consulates/Embassy Guards. Carry full magazine, one in the chamber.

At last sight, they still were using black tip hard ball 9mm rounds, sub gun variety. Came in little 32 round cardboard boxes.
 
The luggage cases called military holsters (WWII era in particular) are typical. Full flap, snap, button or in some cases buckle closures, these are not in any way fast to use in an emergency. The US flap holster is better than many but its still a flap holster.
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That kinda depends on the particular holster. It takes about the same amount of time/effort to flip open a flap as it does to unsnap a strap (e.g. Uncle Mike's.). Now, if you're talking about something like an original Luger holster with the strap and buckle, that's different, but most of the smaller flap type military holsters are no more difficult to use than the typical strap snap holster. The reason I don't use that type of holster anymore is that my neck of the woods is starting to get a little "civilized," and walking around with a gun on your hip is kind of attracting attention to yourself. (In other words, people are moving in from other parts of the county where "we don't think that people should have guns." Sadly, there is no way to stop them or send them back to California or Massachusetts.)

What I see today is a trend towards completely open, unsecured type holsters that seem to favor the Dodge City quick draw mentality that's so prevalent in today's society. I tried something like that for a while with my FN/Browning 1910 EDC, but went back to just keeping it in my pants pocket, which, for me (as in me, myself and I) is much quicker, definitely more comfortable, and doesn't worry me at all about an AD since it incorporates the famous FN "Triple Securite" system.
 
Everyone weighs in his risks and takes his chances. Or, in some cases, the state does that for you.

I don't know why people are so obsessed with correcting other people's judgement regarding their personal safety. Most people go around unarmed. Carrying a gun with chamber empty is a whole lot better then not carrying one if you ever come to need one.

To say it's a club and useless just seems to come from the same kind of argument that anti-gun advocates like to use - that carrying guns is always useless because attackers have the initiative. It does slow response time, sure thing, but again, is that part of a second really likely to be the decisive factor?
 
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Glock type pistols seem to have more negligent discharges than other types. More training is needed than for those with safetys on them or revolvers. It's a fact, officers must be more careful when handling this type gun. Sorry if you disagree but it's proven fact.
 
If I'm carrying my Glock 17 in my car; or am using it for home protection - I leave the chamber empty. I'm just not comfortable with the Glock format, even though I like and respect the gun from a durability standpoint. This is why I seldom carry carry a Glock.
 
I have a friend who carries a 380 bodyguard without a round in the chamber in an uncle mikes IWB holster in the small of his back. I have tried to explain the reasons small of the back as well as carrying with an empty chamber may be bad. I asked him how many times he had tried drawing and chambering a round and he looked at me like I was speaking chinese. I then over heard him suggesting the 380 bodyguard to another coworker because he has never had a problem with his. I asked how many rounds he had fired from it he said lots like a box.
 
All of my training tells me that things happen very quickly in a life threatening encounter with a predator. My response has to be considered and my actions immediate. I carry in a soft holster with no retention IWB, with a round chambered. If this makes me a cowboy, I'm good with that.
 
The real argument is not about loaded chambers but about carrying a single action auto pistol (or revolver) at all. If time is very short, it seems to me that even flipping off a safety or cocking a hammer will impose an unacceptable delay and increase the chances of making a fatal mistake.

Jim
 
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