I need advice, and would love input.

Thoughts:

I think your concept of presenting him with a personalized 1911 is GREAT. That said ...

  • The mockup is ALL wrong. A pistol for an ROTC instructor should be either a true military pistol or a replica thereof. Your mockup includes the original adoption date of the M1911, but it doesn't even get the nomenclature correct, and it doesn't look even remotely like either a WW1 M1911 or a WW2 M1911A1. It looks just ... wrong.
  • Every 1911 maker under the sun is producing 100th anniversary models this year. Some (like Colt's) are very good, and very true to the originals. Others say "100th Anniversary" on them but are abortions that share nothing at all with an original or military configuration pistol. The makers just picked some gun in their product line and slapped "100th Anniversary" on the side. Ugh!
  • It happens that Colt 1911s hold their value better than any other brand. (Perhaps because they were the original, but what do I know?) It also happens that Colt has the best M1911 replica available for an affordable price (The absolute best is the one from Cylinder & Slide, but that one runs about $5,000 IIRC).
  • It further happens that Colt's factory still has a custom shop and they still produce custom engraved pistols for presentation, at affordable prices. Obviously, "affordable" depends on a variety of factors, but IIRC Colt's lower level anniversary edition is around $1000. Then you could contact the Custom Shop about having it personalized for your instructor.
Okay, a bit of research brought me to the Colt 2011 retail price list. MSRP for the model O1911ANVIII is $1150. The "standard" (non-anniversary) M1911 replica had an MSRP of $999, so there's a premium of $150 for the anniversary edition.

http://www.coltsmfg.com/Catalog/ColtPistols.aspx

Click "2011 Retail Price List"

To initiate a discussion about custom engraving, call Colt and ask. The phone number is Tel: 800-962-COLT (2658). Start with Brent in Customer Service -- he can hook you up with the Custom Shop for a quote.

BTW - Every year Colt makes a run of custom, personalized 1911s for the graduating class at West Point. You could do far worse than using these as a guide to confuguration. The Custom Shop could advise you what the Pointers are buying.

Here's what Colt's model O1918 (the WW1 M1911, pre-anniversary replica) looks like:

Picture003.jpg


Picture004.jpg


Those photos are from a review of the pistol on the M1911.ORG e-zine site: http://ezine.m1911.org/ColtO1918.htm
 
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Again, you really need to check regs. The 1911 is a great idea in concept, but I am pretty sure it would be considered an ethical violation for the Captain to accept it. Please verify for yourself.
 
Aquila,

I know the "1911" in the picture is a joke. :o
I just wanted to try and describe what I was thinking.

And I believe my first course of action on Monday will be to have a chat with the principal.

Thanks all.

P.S. Just a thought: What if we wait until after the graduation, and we're technically no longer his students?
 
Dolsak, you need to get this through your head - you could get this guy in trouble if you get him to accept an excessive gift. You won't be doing him a favor, you will be putting him in an ethical dilemma. Does he accept a gift that exceeds limits by which he's ethically bound, or does he refuse it and hurt all your feelings? Is that really how you want to thank the man?

Do your research, find out what the limit is, and stay within the limit. To do otherwise is disrespectful to your Captain.

And it won't matter if you are no longer students; the point will be that the group that made the purchase was a group of people who knew him because he was in a position of authority over them.

We have the same types of limits at changes of command. After the change of command, that guy is no longer our CO, but we can't give him some huge send-off gift.

This is one reason why you see so many plaques and shadowboxes.

Stop trying to circumvent a rule, before you even determine what the rule is.
 
Another idea, if getting the gun isn't feasible, would be to get your captain a nice custom holster for the 1911(s) or any other handguns that he already has. He might enjoy the history of a rig from El Paso Saddlery since they were the ones that made Gen. Patton's famous holsters.

http://www.epsaddlery.com/default.aspx
 
I thank you all for your concern.

I do, however, ask you to understand that these are still just musings and brainstorms, if a bit detailed.

I do realize the importance of getting my homework done, (Hah, school joke), before taking any real action towards this.

If I ask the question, and receive a negative answer, I WILL drop the idea and move on. I won't be happy about it, but I'll do it.

I have probably gotten more than a little bit carried away, though. :(

BUT! Never assume something's impossible until you have proof that it is.
Plan for the worst and hope for the best, no? :p

First thing on Monday is to talk to an Admin for the district.

Thanks for bearing with me as I act like the wide-eyed and naive teenager I am. :D

~Dolsak
 
Dolsak;
Nice sentiment. But u r young (I know you hate hearing that). Dangerous to u personally, VERY expensive for what he'd actually want (not that he wouldn't like anything he gets), and impractical for everyone involved. Maybe something else personalized that doesn't go boom (meaning no ammo in school either!). Holster maybe?
 
Buzz cook has a great bpoint. If you ordered a 1911 slide, you don't need to be 21 or 18 even, and don't have to go through an FFL.

If you present him a slide it can be displayed and he can mate it to a frame of his choosing that he procures on his own.

I can't imagine anyway that a firearm would be allowed on school property, under ANY circumstances unless it was in the possession of the school resource officer. A gun part would be an easier argument though. It still might be hard to convince the principal though.

An airsoft gun might be the only way to do it, and even that could be a problem
 
The problem is not school property. They could hold a presentation ceremony at a person's house, or at a shooting range.

The problem is not running afoul of Federal and DOD ethics guidelines. The Captain may be retired, but he volunteers in an official capacity, and is supposed to follow those guidelines in anything related to his position.
 
MLeake said:
This is one reason why you see so many plaques and shadowboxes.

Stop trying to circumvent a rule, before you even determine what the rule is.
Click to expand...
He's not trying to circumvent any rules. He's trying to find out what the rules are.

On the other hand, there seem to be a number of people telling him that he "can't" do what he wants to do without knowing either how much his proposed gift might cost, OR what the actual limit on value of gifts is.

You've told him there's probably a limit. Fine. Either he can take it from there, or you can find out what the limit is and be of some help to him rather than accusing him of trying to circumvent rules that nobody has even cited with any specificity.
 
AB, I suppose that came across harsher than it should have, on the one hand.

On the other hand, I'm a retired Navy officer, and I am not speculating as to whether such rules exist. I just don't know if the limit is still $100 (which it was just a few years ago).

I am quite sure the limit will not allow a basic 1911, let alone an engraved one.

Dolsak has come back with such arguments as the Captain being retired - and I'm telling him, that does not matter. He's in a position of authority, in an officially sponsored Navy program.

Dolsak also hit us with, what if we wait until we've all graduated? Again, it doesn't matter. The relationship will have been based entirely upon their interaction in an organization where the Captain was in a position of authority.

The only thing I am not sure of is the dollar amount. Period.
 
I really like the idea of the holster. It is a heck of a lot cheaper for high schoolers to afford and it won't get him in any trouble. Also since it is only leather you would not have to worry about getting into trouble with having a gun on campus.
The way things are going these days there could be a lot of trouble if someone brings a gun on a campus. Even if a Pricipal OKs it what happens when people find out there was a gun on campus and they don't know the whole story??

Holster or grips is what I think would be your best bet. Cost, ethics, security all concerned.

I do think your original idea was great, just not too fitting/feasible based on the circumstances.
 
Aack... :(

I wasn't trying to tick anyone off.
And I promise I'm not trying to argue, or be belligerent.

The questions I've asked about retirement, and graduating first, and the like were just that; Questions.

If I came across as disrespectful, or unreasonable, I apologize.
I was just trying to use those more experienced than I as a sounding board, and bounce a few thoughts off of you.

I'll have a chance to speak with the Master Chief tomorrow, I'll make known the verdict after school.
 
Dolsak, sorry, I don't mean to come down on you as hard as it seems like I'm doing.

You're trying to show appreciation and respect for your Captain, and I admire that. You also weren't aware of the possible problem. I'm really not annoyed or offended by your questions; if anything, I was more annoyed with older people who seemed to keep pushing you toward items that are in prohibited cost brackets.

Again, the main reason they put caps on such gifts is they want to avoid a climate, or the appearance of a climate, where subordinates are expected to buy favor. If expensive gifts were allowed, there are those people out there who have the money and the lack of ethics to try to improve their careers via gift-giving.

I'm not saying you are one of those at all, please don't get me wrong. I am saying the rules exist because those people exist; also, some CO's would be very happy to accept such gifts - I've known one or two of them, and they are well at the bottom of my list of CO's. (They've ranged from incredible to horrible, though most were good or very good.) The CO's I've respected most, and it sounds like your Captain would fall into this group, would not have accepted expensive gifts even if those rules had not been in place.

Then again, they don't usually create rules because of the behaviors of ethical people.
 
Frossst, you are not correct about this. Please contact the nearest Judge Advocate Generals office and ask what responsibilities a retiree has when acting in an official capacity.
 
I said I'd find out, and I did.

After spending the better part of an evening slogging through VBCPS policy and drowning in the Joint Ethics Regulations, I found nothing to suggest that what I want to attempt is prohibited by either of those pieces of legislation.

HOWEVER, to be sure, this morning I asked Master Chief about the 'Civilian-to-Retiree' thing, and he said that he had looked it up himself, (I had asked him the other day, and he told me he'd look), and there are no restrictions.

Feeling cautiously hopeful, my next stop was the Principal's office.
I asked him, "Dr. [Name Withheld], does VBCPS have a limit or any restrictions on what students can give to teachers as gifts?"

His response : "Nope, you can get 'em whatever you want."

My response: :eek: (But with slightly more smiling), and a "Thank you sir".

So, I'm definitely in a good mood about this right now.
My next step is to put together a design, find a ballpark estimate, and pitch the idea to my fellow seniors.

I want to thank all of you, with special mention to MLeake, for helping me figure out what I needed to do to get this far on this endeavor.

I plan to, if nothing else, give an update if this goes through.
Again, thank you all! :D
 
Dolsak, good job.

Looks like I was incorrect about your situation. You took the time to research it, and you can relax about it now. Edit: I'd still recommend checking with a JAG; your Master Chief may very well be correct, but if he wasn't a LegalMan, he may not be versed in the issue. And, many of us have failed to find regs that were actually in the books, because they aren't always easy to find.

You're going to find there are two diverging philosophies about how to do things. One holds that "it's better to ask forgiveness than permission." In other words, get it done, and then worry about the details. While that's a catch-phrase of Naval Aviation, the reality is that it should only be applied to Now Now Now type operational issues, and even then it can cause problems after the fact.

The other school of thought holds that the regulations and guidelines are there for a reason. When one has the luxury of time, there's really no reason not to abide by that philosophy.

A CO my dad worked for, back in the '80s, had his own catch-phrase, and it's one that would serve most people well, whether in the military or in life in general. He'd say, "You get what you inspect, not what you expect." In other words, find out for yourself, to avoid unpleasant surprises.

Or, as Ronald Reagan put it, "Trust, but verify."

I'm still not sure your Captain will be comfortable accepting a gift that will probably run well over $1k from a group of his former Sea Cadets, but you'll have to figure that one out. (I know I'd be very touched, on one hand, but I'd feel uncomfortable that high school kids... sorry, students - it's hard when you guys are younger than my godson - had spent that much, on the other. And I'd also feel compelled to look up the regs for myself...)

Edit: Please bear in mind that even though your principal will let you get teachers whatever you want to get them, you need to pick the right place at which to present the gift. IE, verify the legality of your location, with regard to firearms. I know you're already looking into that.
 
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Please bear in mind that even though your principal will let you get teachers whatever you want to get them, you need to pick the right place at which to present the gift. IE, verify the legality of your location, with regard to firearms. I know you're already looking into that.
Click to expand...

Another question for the principal, or even the School Board itself. At this point, I think I want to investigate the possibility of presenting it to him at our annual awards ceremony.

The Ceremony takes place 1-2 weeks after the cadet change of command, and is at the school building, but after school hours. (Usually around 1800)
I feel that it would be neat for all of the seniors to present it to him after the last cadet award has been handed out.
This, of course, is just another 'what if', but I feel it's worth looking into. After all, the first 'what-if' turned out pretty well. :D
 
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