I messed up -- what would you have done?

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Dear FUD,

I don't think someone with his/her head in the clouds would necessarily have gotten off so easily.

A few years ago, in a nice neighborhood in Arlington, TX, a friend of my wife's was followed home as you described. The BGs pulled up bumper-to-bumper behind her in the garage, came in, and robbed/raped/murdered her (very brutally).

Keep your eyes open. You are not paranoid if they really are out to get you!

JP

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Nehemiah 4:18 " ... and each of the builders wore his sword at his side as he worked."
 
Should'a flashed yo' gun at him and put up a gang sign, then hoped he would git out of ya' hood be'fo he get blasted! Sorry, I have no clue why I did that. You handled the situation well. There wasnt much you could have done without comming to premature conclusions.
 
Obviously, you've gotten several good ideas here. I used to be in the same situation (security gates and such) and cars would follow you in all the time. I cheated the system too. Once I swore a car was following me, and it snuck in through the gate too. When it did, I decided to not even looked like I was not going to stop. I just kept going and left the community. They eventually turned into a parking spot, but I kept going anyway, and returned about 30 minutes later. Never, ever lead them to your home. Have your passenger try to get their liscense plate # while you're driving. Call it in if you can and if the situation is really that believable (if you have very little doubt). Remember, the steel in car doors is a joke to bullets. Hiding behind the door is like hiding behind a sheet of paper. The engine is your cover...possibly more cover than you have in your whole house. If you must shoot, shoot from around the front of the car if possible, not over the hood, as less of you will be exposed.
 
Dealing with nuts following you on the road is really hard, especially if you have no cell phone. I was coming back from Iowa City one time with my brother and some maniac tried to run him off the road and then followed him for over 50 miles tailgating him the whole way. It got so bad at one point I had my friend reach back and open the access to the trunk and get my AK-47(I didn't have a CCW permit at the time, so like a good boy I had my gun in my trunk) out. As she was putting it together he actually bumped into the back of another car trying to get around to the side of my brother. We'd just about gotten to the point where we were going to open fire, but some guy in a semi saw what was happening and pushed the guy into the ditch. I had his license number, I had a perfect description of what he looked like. I had the plate number of the car he rear ended, and all that, but the highway patrol told me since they didn't see it happen they could do nothing about it. They told me to stop at a gas station because we would have been safe there. What a joke! You stop at a public place where no one is armed facing someone who quite possibly is? Rediculous.

Yet another time, I had some idiot pull out in front of me where he clearly was supposed to stop. I honked at him, and apparently he didn't like that, so he followed me around for about 30 minutes straight and I wanted to get home but didn't go with him behind me. So finally I went to an Amoco station because they have really good lighting and I pulled into the last spot, got out, and pulled my gun (I didn't point it at him though, just made it quite visible) he was 20 feet away from me at that point and I could quite clearly see him. He was a white male about my age and clearly pissed off. Fortunately he had brains enough to realize that even if he was armed there's no way he coulda gotten out and taken a shot at me before I had 10 shots through his door. So he left.

Another case involved someone in a situation almost exactly like yours. My neighbor was followed and his house was cased. He didn't think much of it until he saw that same car again the next day. He had thought enough to inform our neighborhood watch. The next evening after that his 7 year old daughter was home alone and the same guys came back. They tried to break in through one window first and for some reason couldn't get in. I don't think they could reach it, so they went to try another. His daughter called George, the chairman of our watch and 6 of my neighbors grabbed rifles and came out and cornered these guys. I came over shortly after they caught them (I was on the phone so I didn't know what was up until I heard shouting). Those BGs looked like they were gonna crap their pants. I think they'd have rather met the police out there than a bunch of Vietnam vets(well and one Korea vet) from a neighborhood watch, lol. We hardly live in a bad neighborhood, but we have a lot of vets around here and those guys take gaurding this area very seriously. If you have neighbors who respect the RKBA, then use that to your advantage like we have. Often someone on the outside can defend your house better than you can from inside, and defense from both sides is ideal. I know we're not the only neighborhood with a watch that is armed and ready. If you live in a development though, chances are you probably don't have a lot of RKBA supporters there.

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I twist the facts until they tell the truth
 
I would have driven back out to the main street. If the car was still behind me at that time I would call 911.

You did fine. Nothing happened, nobody was hurt and you get a good post out of it.

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Guns cause crime like spoons cause Rosie O'Donnell to be fat!

I hunt, therefore I am.
 
All,

I’m neither an attorney or a LEO, therefore I’m not qualified to interpret the
law or to give legal advice. For such assistance, contact a certified, qualified
Attorney-at-Law.

The following is only some personal ponderings:

Prior to any incident, take such dangers into consideration when you buy
your vehicle. If you buy a Yugo, “you go” slow (pun intended) because you
have no power. I will not willingly endanger my family or myself with a small
economy car. I drive a Ford Crown Victoria or a Mercury Grand Marquis.
Other marques of similar size and power are a match even for the smaller
“standard-size” pickup trucks (cheaper F-150s, etc.)

I am willing to pay a bit more for the car and insurance to get more safety.
My car weighs 3800 lbs (empty) and there’s enough size for other drivers to
see me, recognize me as a greater threat than a Yugo (or motorcycle), and
give me some space on the highway. The car is big enough to have some
steel and “crumple” space before the offender crashes deeply enough to
reach the passenger compartment. My wife is alive because she was driving
a Crown Vic (rather than my daughter’s little Topaz) when she was T-boned
in the driver’s door by a Mustang. (Both cars were totaled.) Size matters.
However, design is important. Learn which cars provide the protection and
other features you want and can afford. (I can’t afford a Mercedes with the
power I’d want, so I drive cars that cost about $20,000 new.)

I don’t believe I would fare as well in a $20,000 Toyota Camry as I would in a
$20,000 Ford/Mercury full-size car. Form your own opinion. ;)
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An incident occurs. Stay calm. Panic makes you less effective and efficient.
Do not over-react. Now you know what police live with every day. Stay in a
defensive mode - surely. But you have no need or cause to escalate the level
of force more than “reasonable”. Exceed reasonable force and you might
leave your entire family alone, penniless, without a home, while you serve
prison time.

What kind of incident is in progress? What is the *confirmable* (not
“imagined”) threat? Here are some examples. Yes, every incident is
different and these are by no means all-inclusive.

1) The person following you may be trying to find their way out of a
subdivision or trying to make it home and is only using you to lead him. He’s
a danger because he might run into you but he has no hostile intent. Turn
some corners to make following you a bit of a challenge or lose him in traffic.
No serious problem.

2) The follower may be trying to learn where you live. His hostile intent is
neither “imminent” nor “a threat of serious bodily injury or death”.
Therefore, you have NO moral or legal right to use deadly force - such as
shooting into his radiator. Period. Whether it’s my daughter or not.

3) The follower may be harassing you. If he’s only masturbating his ego, he
is dangerous only because of his reckless driving. Avoid, evade and escape
by reasonable means.

- Don’t let any threat box you in.
- Try to escape safely, without further endangering yourself and others. If
he pulls up on your left side, turn right. The classic defense is to drive to a
police station but if you see a cop, flash your lights, blow your horn, “rock”
your car back and forth in your lane, etc. Do anything safe to attract the
cop’s attention and have him follow you or come after the two of you. If the
reckless idiot is harassing you, the cop may be able to see it and will stop
him rather than you.

4) The follower may be out to hurt you. You don’t want to survive the
incident only to be incarcerated if there are any other possible options.

- Few drivers can stick with me if I have a mind to escape. I’ve studied and
trained to evade and escape by vehicle.

- What’s chasing me?
-- If it’s a sports car with low clearance, I’ll find a way to use that against
him: dirt road, fields, over curbs, traffic islands, parking stops (those cement
things in parking slots used to stop your car), etc.
-- If it’s an SUV or pickup, the higher center of gravity works against him. If
a curved clover-leaf is available and empty, we’ll see who can hang on longer
in a curve. If he has those big, fat, over-sized tires, he’s mine.

- If he pulls up beside me, I’ll accelerate (to induce him to do likewise), then
hit the brakes and dive in behind him. Unless he’s driving a “hi-water”
vehicle or he’s much faster than I am, he’s mine. I’ll hook his bumper, move
him over and take him out.
-------

None of this should be construed as “suggestions” or advice. But a CCW or
CHL is NOT a “license to kill” or even a “license to shoot”. It is a license to
carry. It *permits* you to HAVE a handgun. The rules for employing deadly
force hold true - you (or someone you choose to defend) must be under the
imminent threat of serious bodily injury or death. If there is no threat, you
have NO cause to use deadly force. Period.

If you choose to escalate the force continuum beyond the reasonable
perception of the threat, criminal and civil penalties apply.

Yes, I have been there.

In one case, the opposition was soldiers armed with automatic weapons and
radios.

Other times, in the U.S. it was people with various motives. I’m here. My
family is unhurt, my home was not burglarized and my car was not damaged.
I have not been convicted, tried, charged or even accused of using excessive
force. I’d say that makes me the winner.

(As always, I reserve the right to revise and extend my remarks. ;) )
(As a matter of fact, I just did!)

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited July 27, 2000).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dennis:
Prior to any incident, take such dangers into consideration when you buy
your vehicle. If you buy a Yugo, “you go” slow (pun intended) because you
have no power. I will not willingly endanger my family or myself with a small
economy car. I drive a Ford Crown Victoria or a Mercury Grand Marquis.
------
An incident occurs. Stay calm. Panic makes you less effective and efficient.
Do not over-react. Now you know what police live with every day. Stay in a
defensive mode - surely. But you have no need or cause to escalate the level
of force more than “reasonable”. Exceed reasonable force and you might
leave your entire family alone, penniless, without a home, while you serve
prison time.
[/quote]

Dennis I agree with you 100% about the type of car one owns (if you have the option). I once had about 30 minutes of "fun" on an interstate while driving a Ford Tempo, the other guy had a newer Mustang. After that event I decided I wanted more power and mass in my cars.
 
Not withstanding the particular situation described, if you think you need to summon the police, call 911. Don't bother with the local station number, or the non-emergency number, unless you are intimately familiar with the operations of your local agency. You could get a recording that the local station is closed. You could get put on hold because you called on a non-emergency line, when in fact your situation may be something the local PD considers a priority response. You could call the wrong jurisdiction.

I always tell people "If you think you need a police car, or an ambulance, or a fire truck to come you your location for any reason, call 911. Let us make the decision about what is an emergency."

Now I know that all the people here are smart enough to make that decision without the help of the PD, but most are not.



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"Anyone feel like saluting the flag which the strutting ATF and FBI gleefully raised over the smoldering crematorium of Waco, back in April of ‘93?" -Vin Suprynowicz
 
Satanta: I can't imagine shooting radiators is gonna do the gun owners image a lot of good. It kinda makes us look like a bunch of trigger happy gunslingers. You're probably lucky you are still allowed to carry.

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bullet placement is gun control
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Dangus I wish I lived in a neighborhood like yours[/quote]

Quite frankly I wished you did too, because we still have a lot of the older vets here that take care of the area, but after they leave(by death or emmigration) I'm afraid the people moving into the area are far too soft of heart to take their roles to heart. We have a really special watch in this area, but the new people alway moving in are 30 something couples with 2-3 kids each. You know, the kind that sit and watch teletubbies with their kids and expose them to barney and power rangers, lol. I just don't think these people have the mindset to defend even a fortress with a high tech security system and machine gun nests, let alone a neighborhood. The only young guy in the area that is active in our neighborhood defense is a LEO, and he's a good guy except for the damn loud parties that him and his LEO friends hold all the time. One of them owns the local Doughnut Land(I'm not joking) and they party there after hours and then come back to his place and make all sorts of noise until one of us gets irritated enough to go over and ask them to shut up.

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I twist the facts until they tell the truth
 
FUD:

Sounds to me like you handled it about as well as you could, considering both the immediacy of the situation and the distraction of a wife and child to protect.

It's virtually impossible to handle any threat situation perfectly. Since you and your family are unhurt, your reactions were ultimately sufficient and proper.

I would also recommend providing your local law enforcement with a description of the vehicle, occupants, and situation. While they can't do anything about what happened, they may have that description from other sources - and a tip-off that those jerks had "moved to the other neighborhood" might well prove beneficial to you or your neighbors.

Glad to hear it worked out safely for everyone.

Best regards,

Robert Teesdale
robert_teesdale@yahoo.com
www.teesdale.com
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dangus:
Quite frankly I wished you did too, because we still have a lot of the older vets here that take care of the area, but after they leave(by death or emmigration) I'm afraid the people moving into the area are far too soft of heart to take their roles to heart. We have a really special watch in this area, but the new people alway moving in are 30 something couples with 2-3 kids each. You know, the kind that sit and watch teletubbies with their kids and expose them to barney and power rangers, lol. I just don't think these people have the mindset to defend even a fortress with a high tech security system and machine gun nests, let alone a neighborhood.
[/quote]

BARNEY?!? :eek: Say it isn't so!
I don't know if I have the proper mindset to deal with Barney. :rolleyes:


[This message has been edited by Glamdring (edited July 29, 2000).]
 
Would it be possible to stop after passing through the gate, close enough not to allow another car through, and let the gate close behind you ???
 
Yeah, Barney, Power Rangers, and Teletubbies, the evil trinity. Such poster-figures for stupidity are going to turn the next generation of this neighborhood into total retards. Not only have we stopped natural selection, but we've not began to reverse evolution.

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I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist

The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me
 
FUD, another alternative would have been to continue driving around the circle honking your horn until a neighbor noticed. Bad Guys don't like attention/witnesses.

Or you could have pulled out that LAWS I told you to carry in a previous thread. :)

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Abandon your animosities and make your sons Americans. Robert E. Lee

Beware the three D's: The dumb, drunk, and deranged.

chadintex@hotmail.com
 
I've seen allot of good recommendations here, but just wanted to add 1 more. If your ever in a situation where you might need to exit the car quickly, make sure to take off your seatbelt before hand. Seat belts lock when they experience quick jerk, kinda like trying to jump out of your car to take cover, or be ready for somebody when they come running at you. I was once rendered defenseless due to being trapped in by my seatbelt. Although if you plan on ramming the other vehicle, you might want to have it on.

My opinion, your call.
 
Also, to combat them using their lights against you like that, get a good pair of polarized sunglasses and a very strong mag light. You can actually see into their car over their headlights. Then you will know whether or not to shoot.

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I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist

The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me
 
FUD, I've read some of your past threads about your homeowners association--that was probably them trailing you--looking to cite you for "excessive driving around the neighborhood" or "leaving your garage door open too long".

Or maybe they just put a contract on you.
 
Gotta boost my posts count!

Heres my two cents on your prediciment(sp?):

Hindsight is always 20/20, but I probably would have only done one thing different.. I would have continued driving around until the person either decided to:
<OL TYPE=1>
<LI> Continue following me.
<LI> Stop following me.
</OL>

Concerning the 1st case:
I would have left the neighborhood for two reasons:
<OL TYPE=1>
<LI> I don't want to give the suspect information they're probably looking for.. As in, where I live.
<LI> I don't want to pull into a neighbor's house and have the suspect mistake my place for theirs.. I'd feel really bad knowing that I was avoiding the criminal element ONLY to lead them to someone else's place.
</OL>

In that sense, I would more than likely have left the neighborhood to a well-lit place, like a nearby gas station. Once there, I would park in front of the store, and politely step out of my car making my gun visible (and more than likely) and enter the store. Beyond that, its probably fair game. I imagine the local police department would have received a call from the gas station that night...

IF they stopped following me, than all is well -- but I wouldn't forget what the car looked like.

As far as your new security gate is concerned.. I can only suggest this. What I've noticed that cars seem to do (which is quite ingenious) is park on the other side of the gate until the gate closes. Now, this tends to really piss a lot of residents off having to wait on the gate the next time around. BUT if they've got any sense at all, they'll understand.

My personal opinion of gated communities is that they're built to keep the idiots in.. (not saying that you're an idiot, but it sure-as-hell doesn't keep anybody out)
 
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