I messed up -- what would you have done?

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FUD

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My [Link to invalid post] leading into the development for security reasons and I quickly discovered how INEFFECTIVE it is.

My wife took the little one to her sister's house for the day while I spent the afternoon at the range and then cleaned my guns in the early evening hours. I then went to pick up my family and as we drove past the security gate, a car that was behind us for a couple of miles, sneaked past the gate right behind us (as the gate was closing behind us, the car quickly zoomed in).

I initially didn't think anything of it and just assumed that it was just another home owner who didn't want to pay the outrageous price for the access car. However, as I had my wife & daughter in the car with me, caution began to set in. We live off of a huge circle (about three and a half miles in diameter) that goes around the entire community with streets leading off of it and instead of heading straight home, I decided to make a loop around the circle under the assumption that if the car that was behind us was indeed a home owner, he would drop off some place along the way before I made a complete circle.

So, I went completely around the circle and the car was still behind me! Now what? Rule of thumb is not to lead the person to your home. What are my options?<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI> Call the police on the cell phone -- well it might not be a problem (YET) because the person might actually be lost. Plus, I don't know the police's telephone number and this doesn't appear to be warrant a call to '911' (YET).
<LI> Drive to a well lighted area with people around -- well, it's late and everything nearby is closed.
<LI> Drive to the local police station -- well our town does not have a police department. Instead, we are served by the county sheriff's department and the local sub-station is not staffed in the evenings or on week-ends.</UL>Since this was a short local trip, I did not have my normal carry gun (a S&W 3913 in 9mm) but a [Link to invalid post] with five rounds of .38 special. I also had another Taurus model 85 in stainless steel under my seat (in a bolted security box with a simplex lock) as my car gun.

Looking back, I suspect that this was not the best course of action to take but I decided to drive home figuring that we would be safer in our home surroundings plus I had more powerful & loaded firearms INSIDE the house. Of course, how I was going to get inside the house if trouble developed outside, is something that I didn't take into account.

As I drove down my street and started pulling into my driveway, I activated the garage door opener and removed the SS 85 from the security box and as I drove into the garage, I placed it on the seat next to me. Once I parked the car, I activated the garage door again to close and as the door was closing, I noticed that the car drove past us (slowly), went to the end of the street to make a U-turn, and drove past us slowly again as it left.

Fortunately, nothing happened -- maybe the person was just lost or if they did have evil intentions, decided to change their minds for whatever reason. However, if they were planning on an attack, I feel that I made a number of tactical blunders. How would you have handled the situation?

Share what you know, learn what you don't -- FUD
fud-nra.gif


[This message has been edited by FUD (edited July 26, 2000).]
 
I think you handled the situation fairly well.

Have you learned anything about the laws governing HOAs in your state?

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
Mike, I learned that HOAs seem to have more power than local governments. The boards can make all of the decisions even if the home owners don't like it and the meetings can be held in private with the minutes released later. It appears that our only course of action is to vote out the board members that we don't like at the end of their term but other than that, there is no accountability.
 
FUD...hope you got security bars on yer house. Sounds like a caseing to me-someone saw your toys and decided to see where you lived.

Personally, I would have slowed waaaayyy down and see if they passed me. Then I'd have pulled slightly past a street light and stopped. This put them under the light. I would have slipped the vehicle into reverse and back into nuetral...using parkin brake to keep from rolling. This give the impression you parked the car since they can see the rear lights come on and you aren't on the brakes. I'd also be trying to get a plate number from the other car.

In no way would I EVER lead em back to my house. Are your wife and kid safer in the car with you or at home sometime later? Does your wife carry?

If all else failed I'd drive out and drive off...or force a accident.

Had some guy in Florida follow me one night. I can't drive in the dark and their brights made it that much worse. Finally, I even pulled off the road. [[In my '78 Cherokee]] They pulled off as well. That's when I shot their radiator.

No report was filed and no stories went around that I heard of-and I was never followed again. But I wouldn't reccomend that except as a very last resort.

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Satanta, the Whitebear
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...why not just drive back out of the subdivision and go to a local Burger King or something? I have had similar encounters, and if they do not stop following me (they always have) I would have just driven straight back out.


Hueco
 
Satanta, Yeah, I realize that leading them to my home was a mistake but I figured that if a confrontation was going to happen that night (with my wife & child around), I would be tactically better off on my home turf where I might be able to shoot my way to the bigger stuff inside the house than driving around town and be caught off guard on a dark road where I would only be armed with two snubbies.

My wife does not carry but does own a 14-round Browning BDA380 that she's pretty good with. Plus, she has access to all of my larger calibers (9mm, .40S&W, .45ACP, etc.) but I think that she would be better off getting some solid hits in with the .380 that she's good with then missing with something bigger.

Hueco, Everything (Burger King, KFC, Taco Bell, etc.) closes around 10pm. Anything that would have been open, would have been in another town over and if they continued to follow me, the longer trip would have given them more opportunity to catch me off guard in some out of the way place along the route.

[This message has been edited by FUD (edited July 26, 2000).]
 
I thought of the same thing. Leave your subdivision. But you are looking out for your family first. If they had cut you off or something, you are better off near your neighbors, so they can call for help. Perhapes circling till they got tired of following you would be a choice next time.
Those gates are completely usless. an apartment complex I lived in installed it and jackedup our rent because of how much safer it was, but the whole year I lived there, I never used my gate key. My car got hit in the parking lot, and someone ran the gate over.
 
Fud, given the way you explained it, it seems to me you did about the best you could, given you had your family with you, and the isolated location of the incident.

My concern is that you said you had only five rounds for your .38 snubbie, plus the five rounds in your second revolver(???).

I can not suggest more strongly that if you carry a gun for self defense, ALWAYS, without exception, carry additional ammo, whether for a revolver or pistol!!!! Bianchi Speed Strips (2) work for me (S&Klinton Mdl. 60), and an extra 8 round mag for my Colt L.W. Commander .45.

I say again, ALWAYS carry extra ammo, I don't care how many rounds your Siggyglockenbersmithy holds! You'll never regret it.

FWIW. J.B.
 
Jay, Thanks for your comments. I neglected to mention that I did have one speed strip on me (for my carry gun) and three speedloaders inside the security box (for my car gun). However, quick tactical revolver reloads are not something I feel comfortable with -- not in my ability to do it but in my ability to do it QUICKLY (I have more confidence in my ability to do quick pistol reloads -- put I wasn't carrying my pistol that night), but I ALWAYS carry extra ammo -- at least one reload.
 
Program your cell phone with a speed-dialer # for your county sheriff. When you feel the need to call 'em, do so & allow them to provide for the "publics' safety" as they are tasked to do. (I know, so no flames or cites of examples of "no requirement to provide for anyboys' safety," etc. - I'm well aware .... just making a quick commentary). & I agree, wasn't a 911 needed call as yet or turned into one. The programmed local non-emergency # will do the trick & you couldv'e just driven around for the time it took for the local LEOs to show up. Sounds like a pretty sleepy area & you should (maybe) receive some time of timely response (sometime).

Have you mentioned the lack of "security" at the "security gate" to your HOA? Probably a waste of breath from what I've garnered reading some of your fiascos with these nazis. Just curious - squeaky wheel & all ...

Coupla posts had decent advise re stopping past the lights (if any) so to put them in the spotlight (so to speak) .... but with my kids in my car - mobility is better than static tactics, IMHO.

& one thing I noticed from your post is that you are not comfortable with what you carry ITSHTF. Subliminal, but nonetheless. Perhaps some extra pratice re reloads with what you do carry or upgarde to an auto (more rounds initially + "easier"/more ammo reloads).

& "short trips" sometimes do turn into more than we'd ever wish. .... "if you care to send the very best" ... ;)
 
labgrade, I feel comfortable carrying the gun, I just don't have a lot of practice (and thus not a lot of confidence) in doing a QUICK reload with the gun since nearly two decades of my firearm experience has been with pistols and not revolvers but you make a good point that I should practice more on my reloading skills and that even short local trips "require the very best" as you never know what might be waiting for you somewhere. Thanks.
 
Sounds as if you did your best given the circumstances. The situation was not escalated by your actions, you and yours are safe, and even though you returned home, and the person following you knows where you live, you followed a most basic strategy, according to Sun Tzu: Choose your ground, and make the enemy come to you. Having the home field advantage means a lot more than just playing sports, IMHO.
 
I think you did good. You survived with no injury.

Some points for you to consider. Remember it is much easier to think of what one SHOULD have done when you are relaxed and have more than enough time to think than it is to respond right now!

Well you don't say how your car compared to their car size wise. If you had parity or better I would not have given up the car as a weapon. Any car is far more powerful than a handheld gun.

I would have had wife call operator/directory assistance, for non emergency number (or failing that call 911 and be done with it, if you THOUGH someone might be having a heart attack you would use 911 right? why not here if you don't have non emergency number since you THINK you might need to use deadly force?) on cell phone while keeping eyes on their car. One thing to remember if your driving a newer car with airbags is even "mild" impacts can trigger airbag which will leave you "dazed and confused"...and BG's could hit your car on purpose to do that.

Tactically having your headlights pointed at them would be better than having your tail lights pointed at them--this also puts engine block between you and them, and if you have wife and kids on the floor they would be behind true cover. Also if you think gunfire is likely roll down widows if you have time, the glass when inside the car door has a better chance of stopping bullet(s) with door metal's help and you won't get glass in the face.



[This message has been edited by Glamdring (edited July 26, 2000).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Glamdring: ... the glass inside door has better chance of stopping bullet with door metal's help and you won't get glass in the face.[/quote]Excellent point. I never thought of that. It's amazing what you learn on TFL -- no wonder I spend so much time here (my boss keeps asking me what's this IP address that keeps popping up on reports next to my name all of the time :rolleyes:).

[This message has been edited by FUD (edited July 26, 2000).]
 
FUD,
My only suggestion would be that every time you pass through the gate, drive slowly and stop just on the other side until it closes. That way no one else can zip through behind you. That may not be possible with the way that the gate is set up but it's worth a try.
Stay safe.

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Those who use arms well cultivate the Way and keep the rules.Thus they can govern in such a way as to prevail over the corrupt- Sun Tzu, The Art of War
 
I certainly would not feel threatened if armed with two snub revolvers and had several reloads available.

Maybe you should practice more. Ever heard of the NY reload?

Anyway... you should really stop after passing the gate and wait for the gate to close. This will keep people from sneaking in, which was already mentioned.
 
Satanta,

"I even pulled off the road. ... They pulled off as well. That's when I shot their radiator."

From what you explained, I don't see any imminent danger of serious bodily injury or death. Therefore, I question whether your use of deadly force was justified in any respect.

Could have been embarrassing to learn the "follower" was an unmarked police car.
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FUD,
My wife and I were followed one night years ago (in San Antonio). I pulled into a neighbor's driveway right near a corner. When the follower went by and turned the corner, I immediately backed out and followed him. The hunter became the hunted. I gave the police a full report with license number, make, model, color and style of the car, number of people in the car and a partial description of the people.

Then I copied the report and passed copies to my neighbors in the subdivision.

Nothing came of it as far as I know.

By the way, I carry a small tape recorder in my car to record car mileage for the Infernal (sic) Revenue Service. When there's something else worth recording, I can do it without paper and pencil, with only one hand, with my eyes on the road.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dennis:
Satanta,

"I even pulled off the road. ... They pulled off as well. That's when I shot their radiator."

From what you explained, I don't see any imminent danger of serious bodily injury or death. Therefore, I question whether your use of deadly force was justified in any respect.
[/quote]

Well, with respect, where do you draw the line? If they have their highbeams covering you what would your first positive indication of hostile action be? Since they would be in shadow and could flank you or draw and shoot without you being able to see? I am not saying shooting the radiator was the wisest thing to do. But the reality of self defense can often put one on a legal edge.

If it had been your daughter or wife in Satanta's situation would you feel differently? I can say from personal experiance that if someone with more acceleration than you starts playing games on a road you don't have many safe/legal choices. You end up having to break driving/traffic saftey laws [I don't mean just speeding I mean you have to do things that are dangerous to get away if they are serious about staying with you] or use a weapon.
 
PreserveFreedom, wanna trade places? Seriously though, I think that I'm overly cautious because of my past experiences and I more observant than most -- frequently expecting (& preparing for) the worst. If you think about it, if this happened to somebody with their head in the clouds, they would have followed him home they way they did to me. He would have pulled into his garage the way that I did and shut the door. They would have drove past him and left just like what happened to me.

I did not confront them or display my weapon and they made no hostile movements toward me either. I'm sure that this type of stuff happens all of the time but people just don't take notice of it or do not assume the worst like I do. ;)

Of course, I would rather be ready & expecting the worst and have nothing happen then assume that everything is fine and be attacked by surprise. Regards, FUD
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