I just saw "Waco - Rules of Engagement"

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I'll agree that a fair number would follow the orders, but I also believe that they would have to fight their way off base to do it.

Furthermore, there aren't enough of them to take over in one fell swoop. There would be enough response time for those of us who resist to take action.

I'm a peace officer. I love my job. I really don't even consider it work. The only other thing that I could even fathom doing and being happy is teaching history and political science at a small college somewhere. Even then, I would work part time as a peace officer.

However, should any such orders ever be given, I'll take off my badge and duty belt on the spot. I can truly say that 85-90% of the officers that I know would also resist in some fashion.

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"God grants liberty only to those who love it and are always ready to guard and defend it." --Daniel Webster
 
legacy38:

As long as there are Peace Officers like you, we the people of the U.S., not just gun owners, still have a chance. I have heard a lot of LEO's say the same thing so I still hold out hope :)

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I agree that a lot of LEO's, Military, Etc...., will not go along with certain orders. What concerns me is not the older ones but the new recruits. The ones that have not lived long enough to know any better, that just want to go out and kick some butt. This is one reason that groups like the Night Stalkers have an average age so low (I think it was around 18-22). At that age I was invincible :) At 45 I know better.

The only saving grace is my hope that most commanding officers (who are older and know the consequences of such action) will not pass those types of orders down the ranks if they can avoid it. Of course these are general statements and not everyone falls into that mindset.

One thing I do know is that something BIG is going to happen. Whether it be Clinton wanting to stay in power, Y2K, or a combination of those and possibly others, time will tell.

Jon...


[This message has been edited by DrJon (edited August 08, 1999).]
 
I rented this movie over the weekend (Waco) and have to say I liked it. It was well balanced and seemed to be based on factual evidence.

It was clearly a slap in the face to the federal bureaucrats in the ATF and FBI, not to mention Janet Reno and the Clinton conspirators. There was no evidence presented that David Koresh was molesting children or had illegal weapons in the compound, eventhough those were apparently reasons given on a search warrant. The Davidians seemed peaceful, law abiding, and passionately religious.

But one watching the television news stories during the Waco incident wouldn't think that at all. We were spoon fed pieces of the incident laced with a massive cover-up of a complete violation of rights of the Davidians by the federal government.

If you doubt things like government conspiracies and cover-ups...go rent this movie. You couldn't conclude anything else but that.
 
Guys and Gals I too rented this movie over the weekend and what I saw really scared me. I have always preached that the issue is not crime control, but gun control which means control. In the back of my mind I always wondered if Sen Schummer and pals really are interested in preventing violence just misguided in the way. This movie PROVED to me that Schummer is a dire threat to freedom and justice. I can not explain it but the way he attacked anyone who said the government was wrong sent a shiver up my spine. I am pro-LEO, hell my dad is a retired LEO, and I do not like to publicly arm chair quarterback the decisions they make in a bad situation, but the LEO's in this case were the bad situation-no bones about it. If ,as the documentary claimed, the FBI covered the Davidians only way out of the fire with automatic weapons fire then my faith in this country, Law Enforcement and the military would be shaken to the core (and probably never recover) the intial fire fight was just strait up ATF stupidity and I can forgive that in a way, but to itetionally bar US citizens from escaping a leathal fire, just to cover up blunders is beyond inexcusable it is uncomprehendable. So for now I still believe that the final fire was not started intentionally by the gov.

Later
Daren
 
Based on this thread, I finally got a chance to go out and rent the tape, Waco: ROE.

First of all, there were a few things I didn't like. The biggest one was that I wanted to hear the responses to some of the tough questions being asked. Instead, it was cut off, almost suggesting a particular bias from the producers of this tape.

But this is hardly a quibble next to the amount of evidence provided to support its theory. I was deeply disturbed by all this. The most profound, being the FLIR footage.

I am ashamed for having been a former support of government actions in this situation. I am not pro or anti government or cults. However, I AM anti-injustice. This, in my personal opinion, is a clear case of injustice on the part of those who were in charge of this sting. They should be brought to trial to answer some tough but unresolved questions.

Just a personal note, it is specifically being a pawn of government abuses and ambiguous politics that have made me decline joining the Marines when I was 18. Now I am just as wary about which law enforment branch or department that I plan to join.

However, I still can't stress enough that the tape had a particular slant, and for objective thinkers, we must be wary of those with agendas, even if they turn out to be right. A good site to go to for comparing notes is: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/

[This message has been edited by SB (edited August 13, 1999).]
 
DrJon/Thad/et al:

The "Night Stalkers" are the US Army's 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment posted at Ft. Campbell, KY. They are the best in the world at flying rotary wing aircraft NOE, at night with NVGs on. I don't know what their average age is but the majority of their pilots are senior warrant officers (CWO3s and CWO4s) with thousands of hours of flight time. As such, I suspect their operators are somewhat older. Their support troops (mechanics, cooks, clerks) would be closer to the 18-21 yoa average. Their mission is to provide aviation support (lift and gunship support) to Army SF, 75th Ranger Regiment, and SFOD-D...nothing more. I'm proud to have worked with and to know some of their personnel quite well during my career and they are my friends...they were not at WACO or anywhere else like that. As for the quote the former Naval Intel guy made, that's just his opinion...and we all know what opinions are like. BTW, being an intel guy doesn't impart any special understanding of SOF and their training objectives anymore than my being former SOF guy imparts a vast understanding of how military intel works and trains. Just understand that you can only fly around Ft Campbell or Ft Bragg so many times in training without it becoming rote...with mission parameters as demanding as theirs, they must get out into areas they are not familiar if the training is to be challenging and meaningful.

They are not a "ground unit" so they were not seen on the ground at Waco or anywhere else. BTW, CWO Mike Durant (the man who was captured by Adid's Militia following TF Ranger's op in Mogadishu in Oct 92) was and still is a "Night Stalker" They are consumate professionals and are not doing what they do just so they can go out and "kick some butt". That is not the attitude you see with the SOF community, whether Army, Navy, or AF. We take pride in being "Quiet Professionals". Look to the Marines or 82d Airborne Division (aka the World's Largest Street Gang) for that attitude which is exactly the attitude you want from a division of 18-20 year old young studs. Also, the FBIs HRT does not model itself after a bunch of helo pilots...if they model themselves after anyone in the military, it would be SFOD-D or SEAL TM 6.

I checked into the worldnet link...it is, in my not so humble professional military opinion, the biggest crock of crap I've ever seen. It talks about the 160th's motto being from Revelation, and its heraldry being full of "occult" symbols...more crap. The 160th website is not an official site...it' run by the regiment to support the families of its soldiers and to provide information about the regiment to the public or soldiers interested in it. BTW, the regiment's motto is "Night Stalkers Don't Quit"...nothing about the 4 horseman or anything else.

Just wanted to clear up some mis-conceptions and mis-information contained in this thread...sorry I got into it so late.

Best...
Mike

[This message has been edited by Mike Spight (edited August 13, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Mike Spight (edited August 13, 1999).]
 
Thanks for bringing some sense back to this thread Mike.
I saw the Waco documenatary on TV and was really shocked. I had believed the media crap that was on the time. I don't think it was a conspiracy theory or training. It was a major stuff up by people seeking great publicity from the media. What really made me angry were those Democrat politicians in the hearings attacking witnesses. They just wanted to protect their own politicians.
I was very suprised that in America that there were no major recriminations as a result of this.
The show wasn't about a conspiracy it was about the government trying to hide a major stuff up. There is a difference.
 
rabbitt assassin:

You're welcome...

BTW, if you folks want to get a good look at what the 160th, the Ranger Rgt and SFOD-D is about (within the bounds of reason) read BLACK HAWK DOWN. I think you'll clearly see that the character of these men is such that if they had been directed to participate in a "stuff up" (I love that!) like Waco, they'd have told their bosses to "get stuffed". Like the flyers of the 160th, I've known and worked with men who served (or still serve) in SF, Rangers, SFOD-D and they've forgotten more about integrity and honor than the talking heads and lapdogs within the FBI, BATF, DOJ, et al will ever know.

Finally, I believe the worldnet piece talked about SFOD-D being made up mostly of Rangers who are immature and can't think independently. More crap...reading BLACK HAWK DOWN will show you that statement is totally WOD (Way Out Dere). Bottom line, there ain't a bunch of privates and 2LTs running around in organizations like that, with the exception of the 75th. Maturity (which comes with age and experience) and ability to think independently are as valued as physical fitness and the ability to shoot, jump and ruck. Read Beckwith's book DELTA FORCE and BLACK HAWK DOWN...you'll know everything you need to.
 
I don't think that the fire was set intentionally, but the tactics that allowed the situation to develop are to blame. The CS gas should never have been used in such a situation, they definately should not have been smashing the building with tanks. Even the most ignorant of the human race should have realized that would cut off escape routes.

With all that being said, after having reflected on it quite a bit, this what I truly believe happened: The ATF fully planned on a media opportunity with its funding up for debate in Congress the next week. They, as is often the case with federal agencies, attempted to execute a flawed plan which was botched making the situation even worse. Four ATF agents died.

Now I'll explore the mindset of the agents. There is an affliction that I call "Badge Toters Syndrome". It is basically a mentallity best expressed as, "By God, I'm wearing a badge and you'll do like I tell you!!!" (It is similar to the attitude my 4 year old nephew has.) This attitude is paricularly prevalant among federal agencies. Every training session that I have been in where federal info was used all of the officers in unison responded, "Well, if it comes from the feds it must be right." (interject sarcastic tone :))

I truly believe that the agents botched the exercise, saw their fellow agents get killed, were totally shocked that the Davidians didn't immediately surrender when they in all their splendor arrived flat decided that they would show just who was boss.

P.S. Since when did the ATF investigate child molestation anyway?

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"God grants liberty only to those who love it and are always ready to guard and defend it." --Daniel Webster
 
I just saw this over the weekend. What the BATF did to the Davidians was just stupid. What the FBI did after they took over was evil.

I honestly believe that this was a raid gone bad- a raid initiated so the hotdogs at BATF could justify a larger budget. There were budget hearings coming up the next week and they were probably scared their funding would be cut, so they needed to make a splash. They find the Davidians, slap together a (bogus) search warrant, then serve said warrant in a most unprofessional manner. According to the documentary, over half the supporting affidavits said something about molestation. What's that got to do with Alcohol, Tobacco, or Firearms? Their inside man told them the Davidians knew they were coming, but the head guy who could have called it off wasn't there. Did he not leave anyone there in charge? Why did they proceed? As for "Did BATF fire first"? I don't know. Quite a few of the Davidians are on record stating that they did, and I don't know how helpful the front door to the building would be in determining the answer. It could be that the Davidians were so convinced they were fighting "the Army of Babylon" that they would say that even if it weren't true. However, since I personally don't know that much about what they believed, I find that I tend to believe BATF did fire first, for reasons unknown. Maybe they were out to make an example. Or, maybe it was just a jumpy agent who thought he saw someone pointing a gun at him or a fellow agent. Since BATF insists they did not fire first, we probably won't find out unless that agent comes forward (unless he is one of the 4 killed). Overall, I believe this started as a raid with questionable intent, it blew up in BATF's face, and snowballed from there.

Now, once FBI took over, here is where I really started to creep out....
A psychological professional told the SAIC at Mt Carmel to not be confrontational, to negotiate. So, what do they do? Cut off utilities, shine bright spotlights on them day and night, play loud music, and (creme de la creme) audio of rabbits being slaughtered! You're dealing with someone you think is a nutcase, and you try to end the standoff by agitating him!? Clearly, FBI was not there to peacably end this standoff. The real jewel was the accounts of agents and soldiers who were flipping the Davidians off, mooning them, running over graves! From start to end, this affair was mishandled, and the rights of the Davidians took a back seat.

Most disturbing were the FLIR images which clearly showed several someones firing full-auto weapons into the building. The FBI asserts that no agent fired a shot the whole tim they were in charge. Maybe it's essentially true. Maybe those people shown on the FLIR video firing were those Night Stalkers, or someone else. However, that doesn't change the fact that the Davidians were fired at while the CS gas was being inserted. Which brings me to-

I do believe the FBI murdered them. They knew the effects of CS gas, they knew the delivery system they chose was flammable, they should have known it would make cyanide gas which is deadly! Maybe they did know. Maybe that's why they chose that method... One segment shows some heat source go off briefly in a room that had just been gassed, and the fire started seconds thereafter. And the FBI asserts that only non-incendiary methods were used to insert the gas. Why, then, were 40mm gas canisters found in the rubble afterwards? Those are incendiary delivery systems! This post is already so long so I won't go into more detail, except to say that based on what I've seen, I, too, believe the Davidians were outright murdered in Waco, probably to hide just how massively the Federales krunked up.

PS I was outraged at Schumer's assertion that flashbangs are "harmless". He was subsequently slapped by testimony that they are, in fact, dangerous. Schumer knows nothing about explosives, nothing about firearms, and yet he feels qualified to decide what you or I "need" or "don't need"!!?? Pure elitism if ever I saw it...

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"Is fhe'arr teicheadh math na droch fhuireach"
-Sarabian Oomodo

If it isn't Scottish, it's CRAP!

A firearm isn't a weapon until it is used as such.


[This message has been edited by Jedi Oomodo (edited August 16, 1999).]
 
I saw that nightstalkers site a few months ago when it first came out. There was some weird stuff in there but it was pulled real fast because people were seeing this strange stuff. It was trying to mimic Revelations but it had some creepy stuff in it. I wish i had printed it out. But, like I said the weird occult like stuff was pulled real fast. Many people on the shortwave network caught on real quick to this weird website. At any rate, as far as i am concerned, these young studs in our "New Army" ,as they like to brag, will probably follow the party line when the balloon goes up for martial law. They are brainwashed into believing that the enemy is so called radical Christians, militias, taxresisters, anti abortionist, and in general anyone the beast system considers "anti-government. The good people are mostly gone from our military either through resigning ,not reenlisting, or being cut by the Big Comrade Regime. This is fact. What is left are people who will do the bidding of the new world army. Urban warfare operations are getting these boys ready for the main event that the world elites have been waiting for many decades;the subjugation of America. I am sure i will get trashed by people who either have their heads in the sand or are a active part of this new military. People are coming on line every day around the country to the threat posed by our own military leaders who have sold out to the one system. Klintons boy ,Clark , has made the statement that there is no room in the world for national sovereigny or independent states. These elites are coming out in the open and admitting what they intend to do and most people are still asleep at the wheel. Alex Jones and others have been trying to warn the people about the NWO and its use of US military here in America. The motto of the NEw World Army of which the Us will be the major player will probably be: today Serbia ,tommorrow the US patriots. America faces a internal coup by the Nwo backed up by US military muscle. These urban warfare operations aint about overseas operations. The actors and players used are Americans and the scenery is the good old USA. If we still had the military that Reagan had , the NWO would not dare make a move. But Big Comrade took care of that.
 
All:

Anyone else here see the 160th's website a "...few months ago..."? If so, did it contain occult symbols and references to the book of Revelation as IVAN claims?

Mike
 
Mike,

I briefly browsed the site when the articles about the training missions in Texas came out.

In answer to your question, yes.

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John/az

"The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

http://www.countdown9199.com
 
John:

OK...let's say the site did contain "occult" symbols and make reference to the book of Revelation. Which, specifically, occult symbols did it contain and which verses from Revelation did it quote?

Remember that flying units have a long history of using symbols, mottoes, etc that people not familiar with the military might consider bizarre or even inappropriate. Look back to WWII...nose art on B-17s, 24s and 29s and fighter ac ran the gamut from risque to spooky. There's currently a fighter squadron in the US Navy (can't remember which one...VF?) called the "Jolly Rogers". The vertical stabalizers on their Tomcats are painted black and emblazoned with a skull and crossbones...is that occult?

A big part of flying combat ac, whether rotary or fixed wing, is tied to a macho sense of invincibility and the ability to lay death and destruction on one's enemies. If they didn't feel that way, they'd be worthless. If anything like that appeared on their website (or does again later) I would write it off as just that...it hardly indicates a willingness of that unit to wage war against the citizens of its own nation, which is what is being implied by others in this thread. But make no mistake about it...the 160th is filled with men who aren't afraid to fight. If they can provide a psychological lever against their enemies by something you or Ivan or worldnet considers "occult", more power to them.

BTW: I'm in full agreement that the DOJ, BATF, FBI and their handlers are guilty of a crime against humanity in the case of Waco. My issue is with armchair military wannabes who don't know what they're talking about and alledge that US SOF willingly participated in this act.

Mike

[This message has been edited by Mike Spight (edited August 18, 1999).]
 
Mike,

I too saw the 160th's website. No occult, no biblical apocalyptical etc... references.
Things are as you say. Thank you for a rational explanation of military aviation heraldry.

John,

I think you honestly overeacted to what you saw on the 160th site. Listen to what Mike has explained. He's right on.

Ivan,

I hardly think the Spec Ops community in our armed forces would be involved in any action against the people of the U.S. Hell, I seriously doubt that any military personel would blindly follow orders to "operate" against U.S. citizens. To state or even imply that they would, or are "brainwashed" is an insult to the integrity of our military.

What happened at Waco was a tragedy, a travesty and it is a miscarriage of justice that no one was held accountable. But to believe that it was a precursor to future similar events is nuts.

It seems to you that everything that occurs is part of an overall conspiracy to integrate the U.S. into some New World Order. Why is that? Why is it that the U.S. would be such a target for domination? Wouldn't it make more sense to dominate other smaller weaker nations first in an effort to isolate the U.S. and force us into the NWO? What about other powers? China? Russia? Rogue nations like N. Korea, Iraq, Libya, Iran? Wouldn't it make more sense to bring them into line first, since they are blatantly belligerent nations? And constitute a destabilizing influence in any global relations, especially a "new world order". And just why would you piss off the populace of the most powerful nation on earth? Believe me, when the average citizen realizes they've been dominated, they are gonna be pissed.

I could go on. But I won't. I think you get my drift.



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Dan

Check me out at:
www.mindspring.com/~susdan/interest.htm
www.mindspring.com/~susdan/GlocksnGoodies.htm
 
Come on, guys,

I never said I agreed with Ivan. I just answered the question that Mike asked.

If it was not important enough for me to post about this "alarming information" then (and I don't recall doing so), then it's not important enough for me to do it now.

I vaugely remember a reference to the "Grey horse," but really, that's about all I do remember because it made such a [sarcasm]huge[/sarcasm] impression on me. Thus the answer, "yes".

I try to post exactly what I mean, so please do not take my response to the question as any more than the "yes" or "no" that it was intended to be.

:)

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John/az

"The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

http://www.countdown9199.com


[This message has been edited by John/az2 (edited August 18, 1999).]
 
John:

Rest assured that I bear you no ill will in this matter...but when you replied "yes", then the only thing I could infer is that you agreed with Ivan's and worldnet's assertion that the site contained "occult" symbols and quotations from the Book of Revelation as that was my question. Perhaps if you had explained just what you had seen in your first post following mine, (what you recall seeing sounds rather harmless rather than sinister) I could have done a better job of understanding you.

References to Death astride a Pale Horse in military circles for the purpose of official or un-official use in mottoes, unit patches, etc. is hardly original or unique. It's about as old as the history of military forces in the Christian era. I, for one, don't consider references to symbols or quotations of text from the New Testament of the Holy Bible to constitute anything remotely "occult" nor do I think you do John.

Hope this sets it straight.

Mike
 
Mike,

No problem. Like I said, I had just briefly browsed the site, and I found nothing out of the ordinary in reference to team mottos or logos.

Isn't "death" par-for-the-course in a military team, anyway?

Goodness, the ASU red devils could be construded as "Occult" because of their mascott! :)

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John/az

"The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

http://www.countdown9199.com
 
I really wonder why the Marines and Delta Force need to train in American towns and cities. When I was in the service there were training facilities at places like Ft. AP Hill with buildings , etc. THe boys belong on their bases just as we were on our bases back in the good old days. I can make a pretty good guess why the military is out "among the people" ,but it would just start another flame. Imperial rule does rule today in AmeriKa .Yes, the wackos werent inside the compound outside Waco but outside in their military vehicles.
 
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