I have to chuckle

When one of my rifles is giving me trouble, the first thing I do is hand it to another shooter and tell him "shoot it for group." If his group and my group look the same, its a hardware issue. The "this is my rifle and no one else touches it" mentality causes heartache for many shooters. Some days I just cant shoot.
 
More people need to be raised in the sense that the father figure buys a .22 at the age 10 and teaches the child to shoot cans an such instead of people just immediately jumping into larger calibers cause they seen it in a video game..
 
;)
And while a .45/70 might be able to send a bullet that far, doesn't mean it would be a proper selection.

Proper is entirely in the opinion of the guy shooting. There are still people today shooting 1,000yd matches with the .45-70, period style rifles, and blackpowder. For that game, its an entirely proper choice.

For a different game, its not. Sure.

Understand there is a difference between what one ought to use (providing they can afford it) and what is needed, at a minimum to get a bullet on target that far away.

As I said, winning a match is much different from just being able to hit the target. Quite different things. You can git hits on a 1,000yd target with a muzzleloader, a .45-70, or a .50BMG. People have done it. Theory says someone ought to be able to do it with a .22 short. Haven't heard of anyone actually doing that, but who knows? Maybe we need a new game?

i think the race car analogy is fairly apt (not perfect, analogies seldom are), but I accidently left out the last part. What I meant to say was,

you don't put someone just learning to drive in a Formula One race, even though they can steer the car....and expect them to win

Likewise you could run the Indy 500 in your Ford F250 (assuming the rules allowed it). And I think you could be pretty confident of finishing the 500 miles (hitting the target), but I seriously doubt you would win the race!

Everything you do, from custom loading to all the work done on the rifle, optics, etc, is all done to increase your odds. Its not needed to hit, but it sure makes things easier, comparitively speaking.

I'm not a thousand yard shooter (choice and opportunity) but I have shot to 600, and I feel quite confidant that if I wanted to be a thousand yard shooter, I could, eventually make hits with any of the rifles in my collection, from the antiques to the most modern ones.

Saying that, I will gladly admit that with a less "suitable" rifle and cartridge the learning curve will be much much steeper.

And I'm not saying that a begining shooter should use inferior equipment, only that it can be done with less than the "accepted" minimums.

I can go out there with an SMLE and tangent sight and bang away. Your high end rig and optics will, no doubt shoot rings around me. But when I get it figured out, I will make some hits of my own, too. And that's all I was saying, really.

What can physically do the job is all you need. Everything else above that is gravy. Boiled potatoes are enough to keep from starving, but are so much more enjoyable with gravy...and butter...and chives...and...STEAK..;)
 
Mythbustin some points, applauding others on Rainbow Demon's post. . . . .
A great barrel in a suitable chambering will do you no good if the ammo isn't suited to the purpose. Bullet design being the first factor. Low drag bullets, boat tails in particular, allow the bullet to remain supersonic all the way to the target, this avoids transonic buffering or at least minimizes its affect, and reduces affect of cross winds. Flat base bullets may (be) and often are, more accurate at closer ranges (600 yards or less) than a boat tail of the same weight.
Applause, but with conditionss.

Any bullet fired fast enough will remain supersonic through 1000 yards. Boattailed ones of the same diameter, fundamental shape, construction and weight can do so with a bit less muzzle velocity.

On the other hand. The old timers of pre WW1 did some excellent long range shooting with long heavy flat based round nosed bullets that most wouldn't consider suited to the purpose these days, and at rather modest velocities barely breaking 2K fps at the muzzle.
Applause, but more conditions.

The 40 to 45 caliber long black powder cartridges were popular in the late 1800's, but so were the .303 and .30-40 Krag in early Palma matches; both won their share of the medals. But the Palma match targets were huge; 3-foot square bullseye was worth 5 points and 10 feet wide overall. It was later changed to a round bullseye but still 36 inches, the 4 ring at 54 inches, the 3 point 72 inch square had 2 point 24 inch by 72 inch “wings” on each side. With the decreased wind drift of the 173-gr. FMJBT bullet, the 2-point rings were removed making targets only 6-feet wide enabling more firing points on a given range. And the 173's better accuracy caused so many unbreakable ties a tie-breaker ring, a 20" V ring was put inside the 36" 5 ring. This military “C” target was the NRA long range target until the early 1970's when changed to a 10 inch X ring, 20 inch 10 ring, 30 inch 9 ring, 44 inch bullseye 8 ring.... due to the increased numbers of unbreakable ties caused by .308's and .30-.338's used in long range matches.

The 168 gr .30-06 AP bullet was considered pretty darn accurate at any range. The core was boat tailed but enclosed in a copper alloy cap seated in the base so it was effectively a flat base bullet, the steel core and copper plug did make this bullet much longer for its weight than other bullets in its class.
Applause...

Before the 30 caliber AP, tests at Daytona Beach (small arms ammo, not racing cars, but the same beach) in the 19-teens showed a new 30 caliber bullet was great at the longer ranges for accuracy and machine gun fire; it was a 173-gr. FMJBT bullet that went through a few shape changes. Standardized in the mid 1920 as the 30 caliber M1 bullet. Same bullet was used in match ammo starting in 1922 made by 2 or 3 arsenals and did very well indeed. The 1924 ammunition was one of the most accurate match cartridges ever made, giving a 600-yard mean radius of only 2.26 inches, a record that would last until 1962.

After WWII when the NRA and DCM resumed service rifle matches, military teams used good lots of 30 caliber AP ammo for competition. It shot more accurate at all ranges than the 150-gr. M2 ball bullet. However, some lots of AP were pretty bad; their steel cores were way off center. 30 caliber match ammo production with the 173-gr. FMJBT bullet did not resume until the late 1950's. Meanwhile, commercial match ammo from Winchester and Remington with 180, 190 and 200 grain boattail bullets were giving the arsenal match ammo a run for its money.

There are boat loads of suitable actions out there, if properly set up. My friend liked to "blue print" actions. Major work done was in using a diamond coated wheel mounted in a bushing that mimicked the barrel shank, my friend used actual cut off barrel shanks from shot out barrels, to true up the locking lug seats in the receiver ring. The bolt lugs were then hand smoked and stoned for equal bearing and lapped in place. First proof round then finished up the mating of those surfaces. This seldom required removal of more than one thousandth of an inch from either surface, not enough to compromise a properly carburized layer.
Moderate mythbusting. . .

Most blueprinting of actions is a waste of time. But some folks believe it has to be done if best accuracy’s the objective. None of that total blueprinting’s been able to better what a pre-‘64 Win. 70 action, sloppy bolt fit and all, that only had its face squared up with the barrel tenon threads, bolt face squared up the the tenon thread axis and bolt lugs lapped to full contact. Many modern actions may equal it, but none’s bettered it as far as I know. As long as the action's parts are back in the same position for every shot, tight fit and near zero tolerance ain't needed.

There are a number of factors governing flight of the bullet, which are seldom noticed at shorter ranges. Spin Drift is an example. The bullet spins at very nearly the same rpm at one thousand yards as it did at the muzzle, but because velocity has now fallen off greatly the effect of spin drift increases the further out the target.
Applause and mythbusting. . .

Yes, bullets have spin drift. But that doesn’t effect their accuracy. If the group’s 1 MOA to the right of the vertical bore axis, big deal; adjust your sights. Same thing if a constant wind’s blowing the group 2 MOA to the left; correct for it and shoot.

A prime example of this effect is the .30-06 fired from the 1903 Springfield. A little understood phenomena was discovered. When the bullet left the muzzle there was a very slight but measurable jump to the left of the bore line. Since the Springfield rifling has a right hand twist spin drift worked to off set this jump by guiding the bullet ever so gently to the right.
Bullet path and bore line converged at around 600 yards, after which spindrift guided the bullet more and more to the right of the bore line. So spin drift had only a beneficial affect up to six hundred yards.
Probably mythbusting. . . .

I’ve never heard of a bullet jumping to the left caused by the rifling twist. And it's not traveled far enough for any spin drift to change its course. It’ll jump to the right if the heavy side of the bullet is at its top as the bullet exits; centrifugal forces work this way. They’ll go to the left if that heavy parts at the bottom on exit.

The .30-06's 173-gr. FMJBT bullet drifts about 8 inches at 1000 yards. So if the rifle’s zeroed at 600 yards, the bullets will be left of the LOS a few inches at about 400 yards and a few inches to the right at 1000 yards. Therefore the beneficial affect is good way past 600 yards. Doesn’t it apply if the bullets also to the right of the LOS?

I believe the slight jump to the left was due to less support on the right hand side of the receiver due to the clearance for ejection to the right. This sort of flex is far more noticable with bolt actions that have rear lock up, usually cured by a front sight base off set to the left. When rear lock up and left hand twist are combined, with muzzle jump (bullet throw) and spin drift working together to send the bullet to the left of the bore line, as with the Lee Enfields, the off set of the front sight base is very noticeable. So I'd suggest only right hand twist barrels, unless you are using a lefthand action with ejection to the left.
More mythbusting. . .

This is news to me. Never heard of such a thing. But Creighton Audette proved some years ago that out of square case heads caused horizontal shot dispersion moreso than vertical with bolt actions with locking lugs in the vertical axis when in battery.

.303 SMLE’s and Metfords rear locking actions were such that they caused more barrel whip vertically than horizontally. Which is why they were favorites for long range matches. Slower bullets left when the bore axis was at a higher angle than faster ones that left at lower angles. At ranges past 600 yards, that compensated for the 80 fps muzzle velocity spread that cordite-loaded ammo had. This was proved over a hundred years ago.
 
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Bart, I 100% agree that the "blue printed" and custom actions provide little if any accuracy improvements. It has always been my opinion and experience that the only thing that matters is the locking lugs and whats in front of them. I really do not even think a bent action would affect accuracy so long as you could get the bolt face perfectly square to the bore and the lugs to 100% contact.
 
Your point is one of common discussion.
Some argue that single-shot target actions (due to the lack of a magwell cutout) are stiffer, flex less under recoil forces, and are therefore more consistent (accurate)..
Same goes for long vs. short action....short, = stiffer, less flex...

I have seen more than one discussion where a home "smith" wrecked an action by over-torquing with an action wrench in an attempt to remove a stubborn barrel and visibly bent it out of shape- and then "straightened" it back out with supposedly no ill effects...

There's no end to the hair-splitting, down to whether corncob or walnut media gives the shiniest brass (who really cares) in our hobby. Oh well, what else do we have to talk about?
 
reynold's comment:
I really do not even think a bent action would affect accuracy so long as you could get the bolt face perfectly square to the bore and the lugs to 100% contact.
This reminds me of an incident some years ago in California. A pre-'64 Win. 70 bolted receiver had passed through several top 'smiths hands trying to get it to shoot really good with Hart barrels chambered for the .308 Win. Never happened. Excellent bolt lug lapping, face squaring as well as receiver face squaring. All the right stuff that others had done that made them shoot great.

One 'smith just happened to notice one strange thing after he had put a threaded mandrel into the barrel tenon threads, fit both ends of the mandrel to dead centers on his lathe then spun it at low speeds. The back end of the receiver made a bigger than normal arc spinning around the mandrel. He then put a bolt way gauge in the receiver (tight fit rod with a 1/16th inch hole through it), threaded a shanked barrel into the receiver's front end, then looked through the bolt wat gauge. The gauge's tiny hole well misaligned with the barrel's bore axis. It's barrel tenon threads were way out of whack. The bolt way axis at its back end was at least 3/16ths inch off center to the barrel's bore axis.

After rethreading the receiver's barrel tenon threads to a bit larger diameter such that they aligned with the bolt way and resquaring the receiver face, it did just fine. But subsequent barrels needed a 1-1/16ths inch diamter tenon at 16 tpi; standard barrels for that receiver have a 1 inch diameter tenon.
 
Rainbow Demon --- I believe your P.S. is at least partially correct --- for a less than heavyweight target rifle. {pardon me... since I don't know how to bring your P.S. quote to my post} --- You have a straight line force in in the direction opposite to the travel of the projectile and powder gas. It contributes the major component of recoil.

You have a rotational force or torque opposite the direction spin is imparted to the bullet. It contributes the minor part of recoil, a rotational recoil. Both effects are recoil, and combined are the total recoil. A heavyweight target rifle, could possibly overcome the effect of minor rotational recoil.

Source: Rifle torque
 
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Erno86, having worn out 3.5 30 caliber magnum barrels and each one's had 60% of the rounds through them fired using a scope, I can clearly see the outside edges of the recicule twist as the round fires. Isn't very much, but it can be seen with 13+ pounds of rifle and scope after firing a 200 grain bullet out at 2950 fps.

That torque coupled with the reward recoil that causes the muzzle to rise all contribute and the whole rifle moving about a bit while the bullet's going down the barrel is what makes magnums harder to shoot accurately off the shoulder.
 
Bart, I have a winchester 64 .264 win mag that probably has a similar condition. If you bore sight it and if you mount a scope that is centered, the bore sight (confirmed by a shot) is 26" left of point of aim from the scope at 100 yards. At first I thought it was drilled for the bases crooked (have a Mark 5 WBY that is) but this rifle is drilled true. I have never took the time to really diagnose what is wrong with that rifle because it is a sub minute rifle if you give it about 10 minutes between shots. I took a bit of the windage problem out with the bases and the rest with the scope. It annoys me just knowing there is a problem. What is crazy is if you stick a bore sighter in this rifle right now with the scope zeroed, the center wire of the scope is almost completely off the boresighter. In my mind, it completely defies logic.
 
As far as we can tell, Its not a bent barrel. Its a tack driver for a light weight .264 win mag, something is just out of alignment. I really think the threads in the action were cut off center, but Winchester would have had to work extra hard to do that. My friend says he will be take it apart and we can find out for sure what is wrong, but I have the feeling that fixing it will cost more than the rifle is worth to me. New barrel, rethreading the action, and Im in over the price of a WBY V2.
 
The guys at benchmark barrels showed me a few bent barrels that had come off customers rifles, by holding the barrel up and looking through you could see the bend by the light shining through, I was told by the owner that he had seen a few barrels over the years that were bent fairly bad but shot really good! Look benchmark barrels up on the net, they build custom barrels and hold some records, small bore I believe? Bent barrels are more common than one might think
 
Some years ago, Ruger had problems with their receiver's not having barrel tenon axis well in line with their boltway. Other makes have sometimes had a receiver go out with the same problems.

Boresighting a bent barrel by looking through it then zeroing the sights on some down range point may not reveal its issue. Especially if it's only the last few inches of the bore that's bent. If the barrel is straight and both visual or muzzle-collimator boresighting ends up being way off from the scope's optical-mechanical axis, then the receiver's barrel tenon threads are crooked.

Note that putting a scope's adjustments at mid point in their range does not necessarily have them centered on the scope's optical-mechanical axis. That axis is typically off center of a scope's adjustment range. The only way to get a scope's reticule in line with its opto-mech axis, that is the center of the main tube front to back, is to put the scope in two fixed V blocks, one at each end of the tube, rotate the scope and make adjustments until the reticule center stays at the same place on the target as the scope's rotated through 360 degrees. That shows that as the scope's rotated, the image of the target where the reticule's centered doesn't move and therefore is exactly aligned with the scopes opto-mech axis. That axis is what the rings on the bases hold the scope at. And the amount of adjustment either side of that zero will typically be different both ways for both E and W knobs. Most folks are quite surprised at what they find out by doing this then checking the error between the bore axis and where the scope's axis is by boresighting.

So, check your mounted scope's alignment with the receiver with bases and rings attached only with the scope's adjustments set to the scope's true zero.
 
Forum: A place to get any and all possible answer, to any and all possible questions. Also a place to have an endless discussion on any and all topics.

Most of the Green-Horn dilemma could be eliminated simply by cancelling a cable subscription and reading a good book.

I'm no expert sniper or 1000 yrd shooter. I will never need to shoot more than a couple 100 yrds. I can hit what I need to on any given day. Experience with your gun is all you need and well thought questions will help you get there.
 
"I have to chuckle".

Whatever gets you through the day. Sounds like you're feeling a bit inferior and jealous of these noobs who buy high end equipment. :rolleyes:
 
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