I have to chuckle

Some guys like there AR's all tricked out...including me.:D

What gets me: Is that some of these hunter's, buy all these thousand yard capable hardware for there rifles, and expect to bag game at 600 yards and beyond, because they don't want to go through the trouble of stalking and shooting the animal at sportsmanlike distances. Shooting long distance's {600-1,000 yards} at a target or enemy is one thing...shooting at a game animal --- at these distance's --- is another.
 
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Just go to the longrangestore.com and load up on all the goodies. Special scopes with custom laser engraved turrets that let you just dial in the yardage and off you go.

Shooting long distances at the range is one thing. Doing it on game animals changes the game from "hunting" back to "shooting". There is no hunting skills involved whats-so-ever. Just drive down the road and find an animal out there 700 yards away and pop him off. No wonder they get big racks. The animals don't even know they're there. Not hunting in my book.
 
Shooting long distance's {600-1,000 yards} at a target or enemy is one thing...shooting at a game animal --- at these distance's --- is another.
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I need to preface my comment by stating that I don't hunt, but....I do shoot long range (with my sons) exclusively.

I read comments all the time about how someone has taken their twelve year old on a whitetail hunt, and they pulled the shot at 50 yards, and missed completely...

Or, sometimes it's the experienced hunter, that misses, and not his child...

IMO, it is about the experience of the shooter, the ability of the hardware to make the shot, and some common sense on the shooter's part to know whether he can make the shot based on conditions, or not...

By and large, experienced long range marksmen are just as capable at a taking a long range kill shot (conditions permitting) as the guy that dusts off his rifle twice a year to go shoot a buck at 100 yards.
 
You know it is crazy, I really started getting into precision shooting with a 308, bolt rifle scope and bipod. Then I got into High Power with an AR service rifle (currently getting a Krieger barrel installed). Then I got into rimfire, and boy is it hard to clean a 50 foot smallbore target. Now I'm practicing air rifle in the basement, trying to clean the 10 pinhead on an ISSF target.

My training has gone from "long range" prone to short range standing unsupported. What I have learned along the way.

On a calm day, with good ammo, and known scope adjustments (or even a good ballistic table), just about anyone can seem like a top shot with a bolt gun off of a bipod against "tactical" targets like an iron maiden. On a windy day that all changes.

On a calm day, with a service rifle or iron sighted match rifle, just about anyone can shoot a tight group at 300 or 600 from the prone slung position. Matches are won on your belly and lost on your feet. The wind screws up a lot of shooters, and standing screws up a lot of shooters. A .22 bullet hole is tiny inside of a 6" circle at 300.

In my basement, I have no wind, conditions are very stable, but the 10 pinhead is smaller than my .177 caliber pellet. An Olympic level shooter can put 60 shots through the pinhead on the same target and only enlarge that pinhead a little bit. I can't do 5 tens in a row, yet.

So making me a better shooter right now is mastering positions, hold, and timing. All the fundamentals that everyone says you should practice. I haven't figured out a good way to train on the wind at home, so I'll just try as best I can at real matches.

Anybody know of a good way to train on wind calls at home?

Jimro
 
I asked one of these questions about a month back and I learned a ton. Ive fired thousands and thousands of rounds under 200 yards and wanted to get into long range shooting. After 3 pages of great responses I learned more in a night of reading than I had in a year of searching the web and reading articles. Im still trying to put my gun pieces together, but just because someone asks the question "I want to shoot 1000 yards" doesnt make them a lesser person or a noob at shooting a rifle
 
I think where it gets me is when the "noob" starts off with something in way of "I want to build a rifle for 1000 yard shooting--I think a 338 Lapua would be the ticket..." My first questions are always the same... OK, WHY? 3 out of 5 are convinced they need to build a $6k rifle tricked out just like the one on the new Ghost Recon game they've been playing, because it's what all the Black Ops teams use, etc... And then begins the discussion of how often they shoot otherwise, what ranges, rifles, etc... The whole concept takes a different light when the light comes on and they realize the toys aren't responsible for making the shot, and a LOT of work and time is involved. It's not meant to discourage anyone--I'm just not inclined to blow smoke that it's a piece of cake--line it up, range it, and let 'er rip! Nope, it just doesn't work that way.
 
The "tools" do have a lot to do with success at longer ranges.
Not discounting trigger time and shooter skills by any means, but....

If a "new" shooter fully intends to shoot long range- and has the pocketbook to purchase the stick and optic, and a reloading setup to make it happen, more power to him. While most any stock factory rifle will hold minute of angle these days, equipment that's capable of half-minute or less is a big advantage at half a mile...

Buy once, cry once.

No reason to start with a .22 if you know you're gonna end up with a long-range rifle.

I know many will disagree, but my experience says otherwise. My younger son at 14 started with a .308 as his first rifle, and within 6 months was consistently hitting 10" steel at 600 yards with a bone stock Savage.

Not all shooters develop flinch when starting with a more powerful caliber.
 
This forum is very helpful and normally very tolerant for the noob and the not so noob. Personally if I were going to compete or shoot at 1000 yards or long ranges I would buy once, I'd look for advice on the best action, caliber, gunsmith etc from this forum. My uninformed opinion would be a fast, heavy bullet would perform best. In most of the rags, that points to 338 lapua or maybe even 50 bmg. It would be my first thought as well, and while I would be a relative noob (have shot 500yds many times many moons ago), I'm not a noob to shooting. This would be the place to start and I'd probably ask the same questions. A bit surprised at some comments. The noob only knows what he sees eithe in video games or on tv. How many of you have brought someone to the range to shoot a pistol for the first time? That can be the most humbling experience for a person, but I try to prepare them for how difficult it is. I don't want to discourage anyone from shooting.
 
If my intention was to shoot long range and only long I would stay with my 7 rem mag but would switch to the 168 grain VLD bullets, I shoot 140 grain nosler accubonds or ballistic tips now and am confident with them out to 800 yards
 
tobnpr said:
The "tools" do have a lot to do with success at longer ranges.
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It really depends on how you define "success".

The X-10 rings of a 1000 yard LR target is ~20 inches across, so in theory a 2 MOA rifle should be capable of cleaning it. If someone just wants to get their feet wet, they can probably use the hunting rifle they already own. At worst, they would probably need to buy is a tapered scope base to get enough elevation to get on target. The Leupold version is under $30.

I shot a 800 yard match with a Mosin 91/30, and my buddy used my K98k, both with surplus ammo. We challenged ourselves, and had a lot of fun.

That is how I define success.

1stmar said:
Personally if I were going to compete or shoot at 1000 yards or long ranges I would buy once, I'd look for advice on the best action, caliber, gunsmith etc from this forum. My uninformed opinion would be a fast, heavy bullet would perform best. In most of the rags, that points to 338 lapua or maybe even 50 bmg.
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Sure, but the primary advantage is that they are better in the wind, which means that they only benefit when you get the wind call wrong. I worked these numbers up for a different discussion, so pardon the copy/paste, but they do demonstrate the concept:

When you call the wind is 60º at 8mph, but it is really 90º at 12, how bad do you miss?

At 1000 yards:

.308 Win, 190 SMK @ 2500 FPS your wind will be off by 4.8 MOA or 50 inches.
6.5-06 140 SMK @ 2900 FPS, your wind will be off by 3.9 MOA, or 40 inches.
.30-378 WbyMag, 240gr SMK @ 2900 FPS your wind will be off by 2.6 MOA, or 27 inches.
50 BMG, 750 AMAX @ 2600 FPS, your wind will be off by 1.7 MOA, or 18 inches.

So yes, when you screw up the wind call, you won't be as far off target with the better LR rounds, but at the expense of punishing recoil, short barrel life, and fully 2X the powder charge for the .30-378 or 5X for the .50 (not to mention $2 per bullet).

When you get the wind right though, the result is the same if you are using a .308 or a 50 BMG, a hit. A .308 is just fine for 1000 yards, and capable of farther.

And I would argue that someone starting out with a .308 (or the hunting rifle they already own) will get better faster than the guy starting out with a .338 EargasplittinLoudenboomer simply because of trigger time.

My favorite thread (the source of my copy/paste above) about this was from earlier this year, when the OP said he had a Remington 700 SPS Tactical in .308 but wanted to buy a rifle to try out long range shooting, then argued with everyone who told him to use his .308 because it wasn't good enough.
 
The X-10 rings of a 1000 yard LR target is ~20 inches across, so in theory a 2 MOA rifle should be capable of cleaning it.
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"In theory", true...
But...
That means the dope must be absolutely perfect, the wind call precise (and in the real world, that's about impossible), and prefect aim/ form/trigger pull from the shooter- like it was locked in a vise...

This won't happen in the real world we shoot in.

I think anyone that tries to use hardware that is less than minute of angle capable is just setting themselves up for frustration based on the parameters you defined (hitting a 2 minute target at 1K)

There is always going to be shooter error, wind call errors, and inconsistency in bullet flight due to any number of factors including velocity, concentricity and neck tension.

The more accurate the hardware, the more leeway for all these "errors"- and still hit the target.

That's all I'm sayin'... It can be done, but more accurate hardware indisputably increases the odds of success.
 
Let them ask, where and how else are they going to separate the chaff from the nuggets and get led to a more realistic goal if they can't get it from people who been there done that.

Most of us can't spend all day on the range waiting for new shooters with a burning desire to learn but we can be accessed here.
 
My desire to try long range shooting stemmed from watching shows on the outdoor channel like 'The best of the west' with john burns, watching them guys make shots on big game out to and beyond 1000 yards was impressive to say the least, my friend even spent the 100.00 and bought the how to video from 'The best of the west' that IMO ws directed more toward advertisement for their products as well as their sponsors, they left a lot of key information out and we found out on our own at those ranges that it wasn't as easy as it looked on tv, made us both wonder how many botched up shots were edited and not aired? Hands on experience is where we learned what we know today, the high priced video did little to actually teach us. They never talked about the importance of knowing the elevation and power setting of the rifle scope changing impact and such, things we found to be very critical. I enjoy doing it but will first hand say from hands on experience I would be very hesitant to try such shots on big game at those distances. I can make shots on gallon jugs of water out to 800 yards with good consistency but everything has to be just right for it to work! To many variables come in to play when one has climbed all over the mountains and out of the comfort of a solid bench rest, not knowing true elevation, wind drift, barometric pressure etc. etc.
 
Things a guy should always keep in mind if preparing to take a shot at those 1000 yrd ranges at an animal, all that animal has to do is take a step at the same time you break the shot, if shooting for behind the front shoulder or the shoulder you just hit that animal in the guts or hind end, I have hunted avidly all my life and observed deer, elk, bear, and moose behavior for many years, when they are feeding across a hillside they move unpredictably and that's all it would take to make a really bad shot on an animal at those ultra long ranges is for one to 'STEP OUT OF THE SHOT' a bedded animal would be a much better way to go. We as hunters owe it to the animals we pursue to put them down and out as slick and clean as possible. I really enjoy the sport of long range shooting and can see myself getting more and more involved in it, and spending lots more money :D. I will continue to shoot targets, jugs of water, gongs and such at those ultra long ranges, and keep my long range big game hunting at 400 and under. There are to many tv programs out there pushing long range hunting IMO
 
I came on here asking about accurate shooting. Got great advice. Now I wasn't even talking about shooting 1000 yards because I don't have a local range that goes out that far, nor would I feel safe shooting that far. Without forums like this where the novice and the wise can meet and talk, I think the world would be a sadder place. Making decisions based on a gathering of knowledge is always a good thing. Helping out someone who doesn't have a father to help or a friend should make you guys feel pretty good. Be proud that you can help people aim in the right direction.
 
I think it was late 60's maybe early 70's was big write up in one of the gun rags about Fred Huntington (RCBS) wildcat 30-338mag taking elk at 1000yds. I'd read that article had to one and we had few local gunsmith stopped in to get a price on one cost was just short of down payment on house got quote on custom action..

I'm a groups shooter and you have group rifles getting 10 shots under 3" at 1000yds and were getting better LR hunting bullets. I'm not much into the hunting show as most are guide hunts and the so called hunter doesn't hunt he just set up for the shot and it's done.

When I had my first 30-338mag build mid 80's I'd talked to Fred Jr and they still had and hunted with that 30-338mag.

Here in Co it's always been the law you shoot and you think you missed you better go check may sure yardage has nothing to do with that law. what bother me the most is the short yardage ethical hunters that shoot into a herd of elk thinking they miss won't bother walking over see if any blood as the elk move further away then they start dropping. Worst case of that happening was 5 dead elk cost them guys their hunting rights.

Worst we ever had here was 4pt or better on mulie it got stopped pretty quick as the ethical hunter local and non resident didn't take the time to count pts before shooting or turn themselves in take the fine and bring deer in. What they do here before tags are issued they do a herd count and the ratio of bucks to does was down most herds didn't take them long to figure out why.

I think what happens lot is some read post about LR shooting and some are site experts and 308 has long history @ 1000yd match shooting. It's never been a LR hunting rd and all they hear is the ballistic it's not hunting ballistic maybe a warning should be include.
 
Twice, I've been squadded with a new shooter having his first time on the 1000 yard line in a prone match. Both times I let him use my rifle and ammo. After a two minute lesson on how to hold the rifle in prone, squeeze the trigger so the scope's crosshairs wiggle inside the X ring and don't jump out of it when he dry fires the rifle, they've shot scores in the mid to high 190's out of 200. They did what they learned how to do. One of 'em secretly got a couple of Sierra 190's and a fired .30-.338 case from my wife and made a fancy belt buckle with them which he gave me as a "thanks for the help" gift at the next match.

Both had no pre-concieved notions about how to shoot accurate. Same as most of the Plebes (freshmen) at the US Naval Academy when the USN Rifle Team trained them one summer in rifle shooting and marksmanship. Ignorance is bliss in the shooting sports; those smart but ignorant will grasp the correct concepts and techniques much, much faster than the n'er-do-well know-it-all's that permeate the shooting sports.
 
Things a guy should always keep in mind if preparing to take a shot at those 1000 yrd ranges at an animal, all that animal has to do is take a step at the same time you break the shot, if shooting for behind the front shoulder or the shoulder you just hit that animal in the guts or hind end,
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Not to mention the slew of other variables.

Hitting a target at 1000 yards on a surveyed range with wind flags is one thing, but generally not beyond the capabilities of most shooters with a little instruction and practice.

Hitting a game animal is completely different, because the range will be variable. If your range call is off by 25 yards, your elevation will be off by a foot even with an excellent LR round, the 338 Lapua. As I mentioned above, getting the wind call slightly wrong at that range will put you off a foot or more.

Hunting you don't get wind flags. You don't have a data book with your sight settings from the last time you were there. You don't get sighters. You don't generally get a coach.

Shooting at game at those ranges is unethical.
 
emcon5, there is lots of reason hunting short or long yardage not to take a shot for any number of reason that can be called unethical. does it bother you as much if short yardage shot may be unethical.

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you I've passed on more short yardage shots than I have on LR hunting deer/elk. You are right on LR yardage and effect it has but it will also happen at short yardage. Bad shot is a bad shot doesn't matter which yardage and one you never want to happen.
 
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