I have lost all faith on the governemnt!

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"Freedom isn’t purchased or held indefinitely, it’s more like a loan that’s never paid off. The “payment” is constant vigilance against government encroachment; by our grandfathers, our fathers, and us. If the payments are ignored, the penalty will be collected in blood from our sons and daughters." - Jim Howard, 2003

In the ever-shrinking world we now live in, the encroaching government we fear may not be in Washington, D.C. but in Tehran, Brussells, Moscow, Baghdad or... New York City. Regardless of where it is or what it calls itself, if we are to remain free we must fight its efforts to control us.
That's not to say that we shouldn't keep a wary eye on our own government, for it has a way of lulling us to sleep with high-sounding words and fancy ideas. But our concern for the Afghan and Iraqi governments was well-founded and once they are "pacified" we will have Iran boxed in. That is a goal we need to attain if we are to remain safe in this world. Too many times over the past years we've been stung by some small group only to walk away, holding our heads high because "we were too good to fight like they do." What did it gain us? More stings.
At the same time, Israel retaliated with overwhelming force when they were attacked and their enemies backed off - at least they did until they were emboldened by media criticism of those retaliatory actions. Now, even Israel is getting picked apart by ants.
Many years ago (I hate it when I start a story that way) I had some neighbors who - for whatever reason - took perverse pleasure in picking on my wife. One day I decided it had to stop so I called one of the guys out and had a talk with him. I told him that I was going to pay for my wife's peace of mind with his teeth. As long as no one bothered her... he got to keep his teeth. He didn't believe me and it cost him two teeth. After that we had peace in the neighborhood.
That is the sort of "diplomacy" bullies understand. If the bully is the government of a country - large or small - it still has to understand that we Americans mean business. If they want to behave themselves they can keep their teeth, otherwise....
 
Most decisions, especially political decisions are based on an assesment of risk v. gain. potential consequences v. potential benefit. You might drop a quarter in a slot machine that has a potential payoff of a thousand dollars, but not many people would put a thousand dollars into a slot machine that had a maximum payoff of 25 cents. We have to make sure our enemies know that the consequences far, far outweigh the potential gain. If we took the same approach with our criminal justice system there would be a lot fewer people choosing to be criminals.
 
First off you have to stop thinking about "freeing Iraq", and "Establishing a Democracy". We need to be there to prevent the terrorists from taking over and in the process turn the whole country into a terrorist training camp funded by Iran. We either fight the terrorists there, or were going to fight them here. Which do you want because your going to get one or the other. If we pull out now, and the worthless, gutless Democrats take over, we'll get hit within 2 years harder than we did on 9/11. Do you think Pelosi is going to help Bush in any way fight the war on terror? Most people in this country have no idea of how important the outcome of this is. They just want it to go away. We need to wise up, and fast or we're going to get our a$$ kicked but good! Bill T.
 
I don't know ... at first I thought the action against Iraq was some kind of cowboy approach, where you get attacked by some Indians, so you go attack some Indians. Later I started accepting that if people are attacking us that we need to do something, and that trying to plant the seed of free government over there in the Middle East might be something that could work, in the long run.

But I am Southern, and I don't think that the US gives people free government, I think the US takes people's free government away.

Our Founders said that if we try to consolidate the united States into one big State, then it would result in a government that was despotic with domestic affairs, and too aggressive in foreign matters ... and so my region lost faith in US government in the 1860's.
 
"But I am Southern, and I don't think that the US gives people free government"

You can't "give" people freedom. The reason were losing in Iraq is because the same people who were so quick to beat on Sadamm's statue with their shoes when we pulled it down, are now hiding under their beds instead of fighting alongside our guys. We can't do this for them. Freedom is something you have to be willing to fight for. There not. I think part of the reason is because they are Muslim and that religion is so screwed up these people don't even understand freedom, let alone want it bad enough to fight for. They would rather shoot at one another over their stupid religion, instead of being able to stand free. I could care less if every Muslim on this planet gets annihilated, good riddance. I just don't want the terrorists to make the whole place a playground for their stupid ideology because thats going to get Americans killed. Bill T.
 
Mike is dead on right in post #38. If you have a employee that is screwing up you do not give them a raise. They are told to shape up or leave. The way our Gov. works is to apply counter-incentives and the use the guaranteed failure as an excuse to get more money. Viscious cycle.
 
You make some good points Bill. Islam is based on totalitarianism. The supreme leader, be he a President, King or Ayatollah, calls the shots. The ordinary people have little idea and no experience with anything we might call "freedom" and therefore distrust it.
Think of two billion people all affected with the "Stockholm Syndrome" which makes them all want their day-to-day lives dictated by someone else. Prior to about 1750 Americans were happy with that sort of system. After a series of oppressive taxes though, there was a rebellion that changed the way people all over the world looked at "freedom."
For the people of the middle east to gain, keep and appreciate freedom they'll have to buy it. Thomas Paine said it best:

"Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we attain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: 'tis dearness only that gives everything its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed, if, so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated."

When the common Iraqi, Afghan, Iranian or Arab finally decides he's had enough, he will take up arms and rip his freedom from those who have held it so long. Until then, all we can do is point the way and keep the wolves from our doors.
 
Rich said:
Unless we can all start debating with a bit of substance (y'know, stuff like facts and sources), I'm going to close that as one major gripe session.
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Thank you. Emotional screeds are just no fun. Oh, BTW. Your pleas about losing friends in Iraq, while compelling, will fall on deaf ears in the Vietnam generation.
 
methinks we've been "trolled."
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Methinks you've been vented to.

When the common Iraqi, Afghan, Iranian or Arab finally decides he's had enough, he will take up arms and rip his freedom from those who have held it so long.
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Unless they feel that it is an american who holds his freedom.

Wonder what it's like to be an iraqi patriot these days...

Perforated.
 
The soldiers who do their job well end up in Camp Pendelton awaiting the death sentence. That is not right and sends out the wrong message to all soldiers and Marines. If you do what you are supposed to do, you will be put to death by your own country.
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:rolleyes:
You lost all credibility with me, and perhaps a lot of people, with that statement. I don't recall seeing Rape or Murder as part of my General or Special Orders.

Somehow, I get the feeling that if we didn't go into SW Asia, you'd be one of the first to complain "why didn't we go to SW asia and stop him" if they set off another attack in th US.
 
creating democratic governments in the Middle East in order to bring some stability there,
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you mean democratic governements like these?

RAMALLAH, West Bank, Jan. 26 -- The radical Islamic movement Hamas won a large majority in the new Palestinian parliament, according to official election results announced Thursday, trouncing the governing Fatah party in a contest that could dramatically reshape the Palestinians' relations with Israel and the rest of the world.

The election results stunned U.S. and Israeli officials, who have repeatedly stated that they would not work with a Palestinian Authority that included Hamas, which both countries and the European Union have designated as a terrorist organization.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/26/AR2006012600372.html
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We in the west are secular humanists who rely on the law and reason to run our governments. The vast majority of middle east islamic countries are religious humanists who rely on religion to govern themselves to some extent.

In the west we think of our religion as an indivdual practice within a group of like minded people. We are governed by laws that are seperate from religion.

Islam is not only an individual practice but a practice which includes rules for governing, business, war, personal hygiene, and individual dress.

So what is democracy to us is not the same democracy to some islamic nations.
 
I smell a troll, also. :barf:

65 post count?

Sure of it.

Election season. Must be frightening for the Dems when they have no plan other than cut and run. :rolleyes:
 
Well I opposed the war from the begining. But we are over there now. So with that said my solution is to give politics and the policy makers the finger and fight fire with fire. If we stand any chance at all at winning in Irag and ultimately coming home. The Give R Hell attitude is for a change a fit. We first need to stop our opposition. Easier said then done. First we need to know who are enemy is. In this case it is Radical Islam. Now that we know that. Under any other situation I would support civil rights. ut given that they are abused by not just a few groups but rather the population as a whole I think it is grounds to suspend them. Of course we could spare the US lives pull out and nuke the whole damn place. To hell with the UN.

With all this said and all the lives lost it could be much worse. It is not nearly as bad as the media claims. Don't take my word. Look at the numbers:

There were 38,500 soldiers killed in Vietnam(www.thewall-usa.com)

There are at the present time 2,800 soldiers killed in Irag (http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/)
 
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