I have a question for the war supporters..

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Was there any real purpose to this thread other than to sow dissent? There are enough emotional idiots on both sides to make a rational solution impossible. One side sits around with tinfoil hats on thinking the Christian Right and its Fuhrer Bush are out to rule the world and corner the oil market while the other side thinks we can spread American style Democracy around the world at gun point, that ethnic, religious and cultural divsions will evaporate because we have brought "Democracy" and that we can fight a war against a strategy ("The War Against Terror!").

This has to be a more usless thread than 9mm vs. 45ACP.
 
Was there any real purpose to this thread other than to sow dissent?

What's wrong with sowing dissent? Especially if you, you know, believe something is wrong? I think sowing dissent is a very important thing, especially when our country has lost its way.

Unless, of course, you're one of those that thinks nobody should sow dissent in "time of war" or some such nonsense. In which case I point you to the other thread where TheBluesMan explains that this "war" needs to go on for decades as well as the many social commentaries regarding the misuse of a perpetual state of war for tyrannical purposes (1984 springs to mind instantly, but I've read others both books and quotes).
 
Sow dissent with a purpose. Sowing dissent here serves no purpose. Minds are already made up and people just want to see their words on a screen supported by others who think the same.

I know how I feel about this whole thing. I also know I am not going to change the minds of any who disagree. Any who would take the time to chime in here has already staked out their position. We would all be better served arguing about the viability of pelvic shots verses center of mass than rehashing the same worn out pro/anti Iraq arguments that both sides have taken to the extreme of lunacy.
 
Sow dissent with a purpose. Sowing dissent here serves no purpose. Minds are already made up and people just want to see their words on a screen supported by others who think the same.

Ah, fair enough. I try to do that too.

Out of curiosity though, where does sowing dissent serve a purpose? I mean, it seems like on a majority of issues across the country people have already made up their minds. But that doesn't mean they can't change them. You say you know you aren't going to change the minds of any who disagree, but that's not necessarily true.

Unless, of course, you're saying TFL members specifically are more closed-minded and set in their ways than most. :cool:
 
To answer the OP . I am saddened by any of our servicemen and service womens death, injury and hardship . However i am willing to see as many die or be injured as it takes to keep the war over there and not here . Islamafacists will attempt to subvert human rights . Better it be our servicemen and women carrying the battle to them than american civilians being slaughtered on our streets at home . WTC bombing #1 , and the massacre of 9/11 should be enough to show any reasonable person that if we dont carry the fight to them , they will to us . I left out such horrific acts as the Beruit bombing , and Cole since they were targeted at the military and not on our shores . If you choose to hate and denigrate Bush well that is your right , its even your right to outright lie and say its his war ( implying that he and he only unprovokedly attacked innocents ) . This does not make the implication true , no matter how strongly you hold the opinion . Bush has done a lot of bad things , sometimes citeing the best of reasons in his term of office i agree. One thing he seems to have done tho is evident since we have not had a follow up attack in America since 9/11 . Under his leadership We have re established some kind of security for Americans at home .
 
One thing he seems to have done tho is evident since we have not had a follow up attack in America since 9/11 . Under his leadership We have re established some kind of security for Americans at home.

There were over eight years between the two "major" attacks on the WTC. It has been less than six since the last. We didn't "re-establish" anything...terrorist attacks, particularly foreign terrorist attacks on US soil, were not particularly common prior to 9/11.

Clicky clicky.

Note that in the entirety of the 1990's, there were only two foreign-originated terrorist attacks, one major (WTC bombing) and one minor (a shooting in NYC). The other attacks (Oklahoma City, Olympic Bombing) were both domestically originated.

Going back to the '80s and '70s, you have a lot more attacks listed...but many are merely "assassinations" of foreign nationals that just happened to occur here here, many are domestic, and many of the rest didn't originate from the Middle East.

Basically you need to go look up correlation and causation, and realize that one lucky attack (however horrific) does not a rash of terrorism or lack of security make.
 
There is a difference between respecting the office and the person. While I may not agree with the person holding the office or not respect him, as long as you give respect to the office and the person in the office and obey orders there is no problem. You still have freedom of speech to discuss policies, laws and legislation you dont agree with on your own time.

If everybody had to leave the military because they didnt agree with a sitting administration we would have a problem. Sounds like a lot of sour grapes to me when you tell someone to get out of the military.

Look at the most recent polls on the popularity of the Congress and the President they are both in the crapper. I dont think Danzig is alone.
 
Islamafascists... Perhaps someone could explain this made up word.

Islamics, in the sense of militant religious fundamentalist Muslims, believe in establishing nations that follow the letter of the law per their interpretation of the Koran. The state exists to serve the faith.

Fascists believe that the faiths of a nation, as well as all other features of the nation, exist to serve the state. The religions of the state work to support the nationalist policies of that state.

The two are completely contradictory and I can't help but write off everything spoken after that word is used seriously by someon trying to make a point.
 
Oklahoma City....

was it soley a domestic incident?

http://www.jaynadavis.com/

Interesting site, and maybe a notch above your run-of-the-mill conspiracy theories. Still, even assuming there's anything there this attack was still directly perpetrated by Americans, who gave domestically oriented reasons for doing so. I'm filing it under "domestic." If doing otherwise aids your worldview, more power to you...but it's a bit of a stretch.

Also, amen to that Musketeer.
 
Interesting site, and maybe a notch above your run-of-the-mill conspiracy theories.

Pick up or get a copy of the book and read it. It is chock full of eyewitnesses who gave statements and were involved with the party. One of the vicitms in the book even puts one of the middle eastern guys at the bombing site shortly before the blast. it was reccomended to me by a law enforcment officer and a retired naval intelligence officer.
 
Oh to the contray Juan Carlos, sowing dissent changes things, it takes time to change minds but it happens. I don't think you will change my mind, but sowing dissent is a great American tradition.

Of course I worry about the politicians who voted one way, now vote another, mostly the ones that were briefed fully before the war.
 
Oh to the contray Juan Carlos, sowing dissent changes things, it takes time to change minds but it happens. I don't think you will change my mind, but sowing dissent is a great American tradition.

That's........what I was saying? ;)

(Sure you're replying to the right person?)
 
Iraq War

Isn't it strange how many politicians made eloquent argements as to why it was imperative that we invade Iraq, and remember they had the same intel that President Bush had, but now can't seem to remember they spoke for or voted for the war. Where President Bush went wrong was to worry about the liberal press and congressional members and start to micro manage the war. I get so mad I could spit when I hear of Marines being charged with murder for shooting a wounded combatant that refuse to stay still. The same people that are calling for his blood supported Kerry for president, and he got a silver star for shooting an unarmed wounded Viet Cong. Talk about a double standard. My personal opinion is that since every person that I have seen in Iraq that wants one seems to have an AK 47, any town that has terrorist in it almost has to be there with their blessing. Thus, any attack from a town should be dealt with by total inhalation of said town. The way to fight a politically correct war is to win it and then write the history.
 
So, the loss of thousands of American lives, and the wounding of thousands more is sufficient reason to bring the soldiers home? Good thing that wasn't the America of 1917. Nobody invaded America prior to WWI, but we lost tens of thousands of men, supporting countries that weren't all that friendly to us.

How about Korea? Gulf War I? We weren't invaded then, either. In fact, I can remember talking heads just prior to the Assault Phase into Kuwait, telling us that the Soviet T72 tank was going to spread death far and wide over our Abrams. That Soviet artillery and air-craft were going to cause body-bags by the thousands. Sound familiar?

I suppose that, because we won in Korea, WWI, WWI, and Gulf War I, that the deaths were somehow "better" than those in Iraq today?

We appear to have somehow forgotten that war isn't pleasant, and that people die. We lost more people in the sinking of one WWII aircraft carrier than we have in the entire Iraqi operation.

For that matter, we've had more people killed in our larger cities by criminals in ONE YEAR, than in all of the time we've been in Iraq. Should we pull out of the cities? What are we accomplishing there? They suck down ever-increasing amounts of money, for little or no results. Businesses are fleeing the war zone of the inner cities, and now, the same people who give us the barrios and ghettos are spreading into smaller cities, and recreating their life-style there.

Blame it on Bush? Why not, it's easier than accepting the responsibility for ourselves. Were the Borders any more secure before the Bush administration? Were illegal aliens somehow prevented from living on welfare prior to the Bush administration? Why were we in Bosnia and Serbia? Did they attack us? How about Somalia? The same politicians who want us out of Iraq think that we should be in the Sudan. For what? Are American soldiers somehow less vulnerable in a civil war that has lasted decades already? Did Bush reduce the size of the military? Then spread it out in "peacekeeping missions"? Did Bush declare a "Peace Dividend" reducing the number of active duty units in the military? Did Bush come up with the idea that the Reserve Units, and National Guard could be used in lieu of active-duty divisions?

There was a quote by Henry Kissinger earlier, that denigrates American Soldiers. Was he part of Bush's team?

Perhaps there's more to this than blaming one man. We cannot expect that everything that WE want, even though much of it is questionable to other Americans, will be accomplished by any one person. This is still a "democratic" Republic, with a Representative form of government. What we consider "constitutional" may or may not be representative of the majority of thought. Politics is the "art of compromise", not of black-and-white. Until such time as our "experts" here decide to involve themselves in the actual process of government, and not make scathing pronouncements from their Ivory Towers, nothing will happen.

If a person has "his" or "her" president, because the vote didn't go their way, I pity them. They've already cut themselves off from the participation in how our government functions. All that's left is the usual whining, accusing, and generally loathsome behavior of the anarchist.
 
JuanCarlos,

You’re framing your facts to fit your agenda in an intellectually dishonest way.
There were over eight years between the two "major" attacks on the WTC. It has been less than six since the last.
Yes; in 1993 then 2001. However, why are you choosing to ignore the 1996 Khobar Tower bombing designed to take American lives and make the U.S. leave Saudi Arabia? There was also the 1998 U.S. Embassy bombings in Africa. Of course there is the 2000 USS Cole bombing as well. There is also the 2000 Millennium Bomber attack that was thwarted by heads up LEO’s. All of these well known attacks were against American targets and killed American citizens and were between the two WTC attacks. Hmmm...

Just because the WTC took eight years to plan and execute, doesn’t mean our enemies sat on their duffs and did not attack America or kill Americans in between. There are three successful and one thwarted attack all between the eight years during which you imply there were none. There’s actually more, but that gets into other issues, and there’s no real reason to go there, so I’m willing to leave it at these.

The truth is that, in the eight years starting with the first WTC attack and going to the last one, there have been at least six successful attacks or attempted attacks against the United States.

You should be ashamed of yourself for such a blatant attempt to mislead.
 
Yes; in 1993 then 2001. However, why are you choosing to ignore the 1996 Khobar Tower bombing designed to take American lives and make the U.S. leave Saudi Arabia? There was also the 1998 U.S. Embassy bombings in Africa. Of course there is the 2000 USS Cole bombing as well. There is also the 2000 Millennium Bomber attack that was thwarted by heads up LEO’s. All of these well known attacks were against American targets and killed American citizens and were between the two WTC attacks. Hmmm...

Just because the WTC took eight years to plan and execute, doesn’t mean our enemies sat on their duffs and did not attack America or kill Americans in between. There are three successful and one thwarted attack all between the eight years during which you imply there were none. There’s actually more, but that gets into other issues, and there’s no real reason to go there, so I’m willing to leave it at these.

The truth is that, in the eight years starting with the first WTC attack and going to the last one, there have been at least six successful attacks or attempted attacks against the United States.

Learn to read. Seriously.

The poster I replied to was talking about "taking the fight to them," so at that point attacks on foreign soil, especially attacks against military forces there, don't count (Khobar Towers, Cole, etc.). This poster was also talking about "re-establishing security," so I figured that thwarted attacks wouldn't really count either...if they were thwarted, then our security was working just fine, no?

I was well aware of all the attacks you mentioned, and I'm probably aware of whatever "other issues" you were talking about as well. Next time read my entire post, and maybe the post I'm responding to, so you actually know what the heck I'm talking about.

You should be ashamed of yourself for such a blatant attempt to mislead.

You should be ashamed of yourself for not bothered to understand what was actually being discussed before chiming in. Either that or you should be ashamed of deliberately pulling a limited quote out of context and intentionally failing to acknowledge the point that was being discussed in order to attack me. Either way, you fail hard.

I mean come on people.


Moving along, a quickie:

There was a quote by Henry Kissinger earlier, that denigrates American Soldiers. Was he part of Bush's team?

A little bit, yeah.
 
I never understood this part of the equation!

"We built schools! And....and roads! And houses! And now those poor little LUCKY Iraqis have electricity...sometimes for several hours, each day!"

Um....but they had those things, and more of them...before they were blown up by American bombs.

So we blow them away...but then we *slowly* help them rebuild, making a *select* few American (Haliburton) corporations exceedingly more wealthy, while still leaving them in a position that is more dangerous then they originally were.

Believe me when I say it isn't all Taliban, or terrorists, or Iranians, or *choose your mideast neighbor that hates the US's guts*. There are MANY, MANY citizens or Iraq who had their homes bombed into dust, entire generations of family members splattered across the sands...and it is THESE men and women and even children who pick up the rifles and go to work. One of their "Terrorist training films" is actually the movie Braveheart. Seems they identify with the Scots...
 
Danzig,

He was hoping for that money to make his mortgage payments. This bothers me very much..he, and many like him, don't support the war for it's own sake..but they surely want the money that they get for deploying. Their attitude is very...mercenary.

It sounds like you did an honorable thing. I would be inclined to go that way but I fear it's to late to do that for myself. This enlistment will put me at 15 years..and I will be 41 (yeah..I enlisted late) Too late to try and start over from scratch..and with 15 years in it seems a bit foolish not to stick out the last five and at least collect "reduced wages for reduced service"

Sounds like both you and your friend are in it for the money yet you belittle him.

As for the reasons I believe we are in Iraq. #1 To stablize a large percentage of the worlds oil supply. #2 To remove a threat to the U.S. in the form of WMD's and Hussains intent to attack us via exporting terror to our country.#3 To plant the seeds of capitalism in the middle east (the thing that many expert believe will ultimately be the end of the war on terror). #4 To keep the focus of muslim extremists on fighting our soldiers as apposed to our civilians.

You may disagree and thats your right. Frankly I feel that you are a danger to the moral of the military.
 
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