I have a question for the war supporters..

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Tuttle..and that's where fundamentally you and I disagree.

I don't believe that a person has the right to put others in a position where they may die for that person's beliefs.

YOU may believe that the freedom of the Iraqi people is worth the lives of a few thousand American servicemembers..but what about those that do not share that belief? Especially those who may actually be the ones sent.

We didn't volunteer to die for your beliefs or for George W. Bush's beliefs. I can't speak for everyone on this matter..but I know that I enlisted to protect MY country and it Constitution.

If YOU think it's worth fighting for..then go do it. But you do not have the right to send others to fight and die for your beliefs, especially if you are not willing to risk your life for those beliefs. And most especially the President does not have that right. All he has is the power. But never the right.
 
No ahenry..it's a very legitimate question...3400+ have died so far. If the death toll reaches 10,000 do you think it's worth it to continue the fight? Would you give up the whole of the American population so that the Iraq could be stabilized? What if every last American is dead..and Iraq is still a war zone..will the sacrifice have been worth it?
 
I believe Bush's Iraq invasion is one of the worst US foreign policy of the
century. There is no good reason or logic to it. Everybody around the
world who have no financial interest on it thinks it is a lousy idea and I
thought so myself before we invaded. I voted Republican last time, but
I admit it was a collossal blunder with consequences of gigantic proportions
for the US. The truth is, us leaving it will make the place unstable and
more people will die. Thanks for the stupidity of Bush and his friend
Cheney.
 
"YOU may believe that the freedom of the Iraqi people is worth the lives of a few thousand American servicemembers.."

So my question is this to you: Is your life more valuable than another? Including an Iraqi?

Last I checked the Oath of Enlistment does state to protect our country, from enemies foreign or domestic. Do you think the terrorists will just sit happily in their own country and not attack us again? Understanding Homeland Security should be improved, it is only a hypothetical that that will keep all terrorists from attacking...

To be blatantly honest: I believe that if I enlisted, I don't have the privelage to express my opinion publicly until my time is served..
 
Only commissioned officers are prohibited by the Uniform Code of Military Justice from speaking disparagingly of senior officials.

And yes..my life, the lives of my friends, family, and countrymen, are MUCH more important (at least from a practical standpoint) than the lives of the Iraqis..or anybody else on this planet. And if you disagree..be my guest..enlist in the military and encourage your children (grandchildren if you are of that age) and best friends and family to enlist as well and go fight for the Iraqi people.

BUT DON'T YOU DARE TRY AND TELL ME HOW I SHOULD VALUE MY OWN LIFE OR THAT OF MY LOVED ONES AND NEIGHBORS. YOU do not have the right to place a value on another human being's life. Neither does BUSH.

I have EVERY right to value my own life and those of my friends, family, and countrymen as I see fit..and in this case I adjudge their value TO ME to be higher than that of anyone else on this planet.

The freedom of the Iraqi people is their own responsibility and is not worth the life of a single American...much less 3,400 of us.

I DO take issue with anyone who doesn't value their families above strangers..That is unnatural.
 
"YOU do not have the right to place a value on another human being's life."

"I have EVERY right to value my own life and those of my friends, family, and countrymen as I see fit.."

What makes you be able to value other peoples' lives and not me?

For one to sit and do nothing for the less fortunate is unnatural. I'm not telling you how you should value your own life. I asked a simple question. Actually, several questions that I haven't gotten a response. If you don't want to, that's fine.

I understand the Uniform Code of Military Justice to a certain degree. I was stating what I think should be...

"I DO take issue with anyone who doesn't value their families above strangers..That is unnatural."

If that's the case, then ALL soldiers should be home and never protect this country. You CHOSE to defend this country in some shape or form. And that includes protecting complete strangers. I don't think I have to tell a soldier that.

I respect your opinion and service, Danzig. But to say soldiers lives are lost for nothing I take issue with that....
 
Danzig, as an enlisted Vietnam veteran and retired Reserve officer, I hope that at the end of your current enlistment you leave the military and find an occupation which does not subject you to divided loyalties and the angst you so clearly suffer.

As a veteran of the global war on terrorism and a Retired Reservist I see no reason why a Soldier can not perform his duty even if his political opinion runs contrary to the admnistration. A thought thats always stuck with me is...

When we assumed the soldier we did not lay aside the citizen

I have never had a problem separating my service from my politics.

I enlisted into the military months after I graduated from high school and the last troops left Vietnam. That was not a popular thing to do then among many of my peers. There were also many officers and enlisted who were in angst about the Vietnam War. Some left the service and some decided to stay in and ensure that in the next war the troops would have it better. I'm grateful some of them did because they were my mentors.

I have had political discussions while being deployed overseas about the war in Iraq. Some of my peers thought the war was justified some thought it was not. It didn't affect the way we performed our duty. We knew that other folks were depending upon us. It wasnt about Washington, the politicians we supported or our political ideologies. It was about having your fellow Soldier's back and sometimes getting to help out other folks.

I didn't vote for Clinton either and wasn't a supporter. I always viewed my service as being to a nation and a idea not a political party or politician.
 
Danzig, the Romans were able to effectively employ mercenaries for the entire life of the empire. The Roman army was composed of wild bastards from the entire known world fighting for loot, not patriotism. As long as the nation is generous to its mercenaries, it's a workable system. I don't think it's particularly compatible with the modern american view of warfare, but it can work.

As for your buddies who have developed the mercenary spirit, just be glad they are our mercenaries, and not the other guy's.

We need more guys like you higher up the military food chain, Danzig. I would not say that if I did not know in my gut that things are as bad or worse than you describe them.
 
The difference is this...supporters of this war devalue our lives in relation to the lives of the Iraqis. I value American lives before all others.
 
I don't know, maybe it is about the ideals of freedom, liberty and justice.

Maybe it isnt about one American life for one Iraqi's. Maybe it is about giving other people what we had, a chance for self determiniation.

Like the paper said "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

Maybe. Maybe we are taking a step towards making the world a better place.
 
Maybe it isnt about one American life for one Iraqi's. Maybe it is about giving other people what we had, a chance for self determiniation.

What if the Iraqi's ideas of self determination are not the same as ours? What if they don't believe all men are created equal?
Do we force our idea of self determination down their throats and become occupiers instead of liberators?
 
ahh...TwoXForr...I do understand Really I do.

But, and I hate cliches but this one fits, You can't force Liberty at the point of a gun...Or in this case by removing a Tyrant.

A people will only be free when THEY want to be free and, more importantly, when they are ready to fight for their freedom.

The Iraqis aren't ready so our presence their is a waste of American lives and resources.
 
I said it on the other current thread, thier ideals will never be ours, because of history, culture and so forth.

It will take its own form, and when they ask us to leave, we should leave, so far they haven't asked us yet. Should we keep troops there like we did in Germany and Korea, sure, but only to protect our own intrests, not to bolster thier goverment or perform police functions.

Both places had protests after a while for us to leave, but the goverment kept the bases open for thier own reasons as well. Heck we knew it was spring in Korea due to the protests at the front gate.
 
One of my friends and coworkers is finishing a tour in Iraq. He was against the war from the very start and had absolutely no desire to serve in Iraq. And when he emailed me the other day, he said he had volunteered to stay and serve another tour because Iraq is a broken country with good people who need help getting it fixed. I cannot help but admire his compassion and conviction.
 
Aren't you belittling their sacrifice by calling their deaths needless?

No.

The difference is this...supporters of this war devalue our lives in relation to the lives of the Iraqis. I value American lives before all others.

Can't say I agree with this, though. The sacrifice of American lives in the defense of non-Americans isn't necessary unreasonable. The problem I have with Iraq is that I honestly don't believe that in the long term we're actually going to do any good. They're due a civil war. It'll either happen in a year or two when we finally pull out, or in ten when whatever government we installed fails. But I honestly believe it's going to happen. I think American lives might be worth it to prevent a slaughter there, but I don't think they're necessarily worth it to merely delay one.
 
Ah Danzig, you are speak the same as Stephen Douglas, "the limits of Tryants are proscibed by those they Oppress"

True in some cases, but I see it as more similiar to the situation in Germany after WWII, no goverment except what the allies supplied, we kept former Nazi party members out of elections, but that country did become democratic in thier own way.

True we had more in common with Germany than we do with Iraq.

But Germany has became one of our greatest allies. Shouldn't we try the same with Iraq. (Of course no one has stepped forward with a Marshall Plan yet, and their is no big bad Communist Threat to the east)(and I am sure people were yelling about bailing out Europe at the time, counting the cost and all)

Difficult yes, are we currently stumbling you betcha, major mistake, yes again.
 
This war was not worth a stubbed toe on the foot of any human being. That is no more an insult to those who died truly believing they were fighting for their country (even though they weren't), or who simply had little choice, than it is to the innocent Iraqis who were killed during "Shock 'n' Awe." ALL of them are victims of the wealthy, heartless plutocrats who play Risk with peoples' lives.

Whatever happened to REAL conservatism in this country? Most of the so-called "conservatives" now are in favor of war for its own sake -- they love to see "America kickin' ass!" on the TV in between pro Wrestling and Rush "lock up all the drug users (except me)" Limbaugh.

This is what genuine conservatives (as oppose to the Straussian neocons who've hijacked the GOP) have always believed:

John Quincy Adams said:
"America does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own."

The Founders wanted a free republic that set an example to the world, not a belligerent empire and national security state that forced "democracy" on people (even if that were the true motive behind the Iraq war). I can hear their bones rattling in their graves.

The real reason for the Iraq invasion had NOTHING to do with WMDs or US security. It was primarily a scheme to benefit Israel at US expense in lives, limbs, and money. (And before anyone levels a knee-jerk accusation of anti-Semitism at me, I'll have you know that my mother is Jewish -- though she converted to Christianity when she married my father, and I was raised Christian. Despite my Jewish ethnic background, I support American interests over Israel's. If that makes me a "self-hating Jew," then so be it.)

The following paper from an Israeli think tank, published in 2002, provides a good summary of the neocon plan, although there are indications from other sources (e.g., the PNAC) that the plan extended back as much as a decade prior to this:

http://www.acpr.org.il/publications/policy-papers/pp141-xs.html

DEMOCRATIZING ISLAM

Paul Eidelberg

Policy Paper No. 141, 2002
Executive Summary

“Democratizing Islam” shows that “Islamic fundamentalism” or “Islamism” is in fact authentic Islam – the Islam of Muhammad. To democratize Islam it will be necessary for the United States to conquer Iraq and other Islamic regimes and maintain an occupation force for two or three decades, as was done in post-war Japan and Germany.

A generation of Muslim children will have to be re-educated. Anti-Jewish and anti-Christian verses in the Qur`an should be neutralized by contrary verses and commentaries. The principle of Jihad must be eliminated from the four schools of Islamic law. Islamic regimes must abide by the Seven Noahide Laws of Universal Morality.

Non-Arab states should follow the example of Turkey and remove Arabic from public documents and public education and establish their native language as the only official language of the state. This will diminish pan-Arab as well as pan-Islamic sentiments.

Prior to this, the Project for a New American Century -- a staunchly pro-Israel neocon group -- had advocated in one of its documents ("Rebuilding America’s Defenses: Strategies, Forces and Resources for a New Century," 2000) that the US military should take military control of the Gulf region by fighting multiple wars in the region. But in order for this to happen, a lot of new defense spending would be required in order to transform the military into a force capable of carrying out this mission. And

"The process of transformation," the plan said, "is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event—like a new Pearl Harbor."

Guess what the "new Pearl Harbor" was, folks? Maybe that's why those five Israelis who were arrested in NYC filming the attacks (reported by ABC News) were cheering and dancing as they happened. (They were later deported, and the government is tight-lipped about them.)

Not long after this, the "Office of Special Plans" was set up to provide intelligence supporting a case for the Iraq invasion directly to the White House by means of "stovepiping." The latter term refers to the sending of intelligence directly to leaders without having it go through the standard intelligence analysis by experts, including "quality control." Hmmm...I wonder why they wouldn't want their intelligence to go through quality control?

Who was in charge of the OSP? Douglas Feith, who has been investigated for ties to Israeli espionage against the US:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dougla...ged_firing_and_security_clearance_controversy

Other architects of the war include the extremely pro-Israel Paul Wolfowitz and Richard Perle. Anyone who doesn't know their background can search on them.

The intelligence was not "faulty"; it was deliberately falsified by the OSP. And they're going to try to do it again with Iran and possibly with other Middle Eastern countries, even if a Democrat gets elected. They're all in the pocket of the Israel lobby, and Israel comes first in US foreign policy. That is not only because of the minority of Jews who are ultra-Zionist; it is also because of the Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson crowd who think Jesus can't come back unless there's Armageddon in the Middle East.

Thanks to these neocon warmongers, the US Department of Defense has become the US Department of Foreign Aggression, and my heart goes out to those whose willingness to serve and sacrifice has been so cynically taken advantage of. Meanwhile, while US troops are "fighting for freedom" in Iraq, we're losing our freedom right here at home, with new laws constantly being introduced to restrict our rights "for our own safety." How many US laws has the Iraq war repealed? How can we be said to be more free today than we were before this all started? We're not even more safe, as the Arab world and much of the rest of it now hates us more than ever.
 
The difference is that once Hitler was dead, the Germans stopped fighting. Would we have stayed in Europe if the fighting had gone on for years after the fall of Berlin?
 
I believe that, for the most part, all people and nations, should rise or fall on their own merits. I guess I'm something of a social Darwinist (not biological though) I think that everyone is, and by right ought to be, responsible for themselves and whether they succeed or fail.

Nobody is responsible for anyone else (outside of children and other relatives) unless they voluntarily assume that responsibility.

I choose to be responsible (whenever its in my power to be) for YOUR life, property, and freedom. That's my job and I do it with pride. But..again...that is my choice.
 
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