I Guess I was Naive in Thinking that all Police Officers were Excellent Shots.

W

Wheel-Gunner

New member
I was at the range yesterday blasting away and a police officer came up to shoot at the table next to me. My initial thought was that I could learn a thing or two from this "professional" so I decided to pay close attention. Now I certainly am not the worlds greatest shot, but I can usually hold my own. With that said, this particular police officer was absolutely terrible!! He was all over the silhouette (he was even missing the entire target occasionally). I just couldn't believe it! In fact if I stop to contemplate, I don't think I can recall ever seeing a worse shot. My wife could out-shoot this guy (nothing sexist at all, my wife only shoots 1 or 2 times a year)! He was so bad that I think he would have a hard time qualifying for a concealed weapons permit, let alone qualifying as law enforcement. I talked with him briefly and he didn't appear to be ill or on any medication.

I drove home thinking that I hope this guy doesn't have to engage in a shootout when I am in the near vicinity. If he does, I think I would be safer as the suspect rather than a bystander.

How could this guy get through a police academy or training program?!?
 
I generally assume that I'm better at shooting paper targets and metal poppers than most cops. And they are a *lot* better than me shooting at somebody who is shooting back at them, or shooting after sprinting 1/4 mile.
 
How could this guy get through a police academy or training program?!?
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They're much more stringent on the psychological / background exams.

Firearms training is mostly secondary or tertiary. Or barely non-existant depending on the organization.

Any LEO's like to comment on how many chances they had to qualify if they failed a firearms qual?

What's frightening is I'm sure he's by no means the worst shot on that particular department.
 
as a LEO Rangemaster: You don't qualify you don't pack. You fly a desk until you can prove you can qualify. If after a reasonable time you can't qualify you can be terminated. It's possible that officer was training on his own time to bring his skills back into an acceptable range.
 
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I generally assume that I'm better at shooting paper targets and metal poppers than most cops. And they are a *lot* better than me shooting at somebody who is shooting back at them, or shooting after sprinting 1/4 mile.
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You can assume that, but you might be very wrong. I've trained with many officeers from departments across the country. Both they and the instructors talk about the lack of real world training and capability, which is what you allude to. There are some very switched on and capable officers out there but they tend to be the exceptions. That's the fault of the system, which doesn't want to invest in the officers' training, and those officers who don't want to invest in themselves.
 
I've shot with cops who were far better and faster than I, and I've shot with and next to plenty of cops who were not so good. I've been at the range where officers were instructing other officers,and I've shot better than all of them. To most LEO's the sidearm is just another piece of gear to carry around,and if the dept says you (barely) qualified then that's good enough.

I'm not saying I'm a great shooter,but I've put thousands of rounds downrange on my own dime and my own time while a lot of policemen shoot 200 or so rounds twice a year.
 
To most LEO's the sidearm is just another piece of gear to carry around,and if the dept says you (barely) qualified then that's good enough.
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Not sure you can say MOST even though that seems to be the "accepted" feelings of quite a few posters that I have been reading lately. I on the other hand have been a Police Officer for over 21 years now and while I have seen SOME officers like what have been described, I can say that the MAJORITY of officers I have worked and trained with take their training and firearms responsibility very serious. I will say this I do feel that my firearm is a tool to be used and carried with the rest of the gear that I have been issued or bought with my own funds, so on that aspect you are correct.

How could this guy get through a police academy or training program?!?
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As far as this question is concerned, in the police academy that I went through 3 failures of any test or combination of test, ie 3 times firearms qual. testing failure or 2 times firearms qual testing and 1 criminal law test, etc., would result in you being kicked out of the academy and you can never be a police officer (cause they wouldn't let you back in the academy no matter if you were hired by another police dept).

After the academy it is up to the individual departments to insure that their officers can qualify, but again the departments in my area are very strict regarding this because it will become a liability issue if they aren't qualified to handle a firearm.

Yes I do realize that there are/have been some pretty sad examples of police officers out there, but guess what we are human and while not an excuse it does prove the rule that in every group/profession there are some bad apples just like every segment of society.
 
You don't qualify you don't pack.
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there was an officer in my department who failed to qualify and failed on his remedial attempts...

he got the detail of walking around the town square for 8 hours with his coat pulled down over the top of his empty holster...

he eventually moved into a desk job dealing with all of the administrative nonsense as a Lt...
 
I just don't think you can generalize one way or another about such a wide and disparate group of individuals. LEO's are imperfect animals, just like the rest of us, and of course some will take their sidearm qualification more seriously than others. No doubt a goodly number despise the fact that they are required to carry a sidearm, and on the opposite end of the spectrum others wouldn't have considered a career in law enforcement if it didn't provide the opportunity to openly carry a firearm. And of course there are any number who fit somewhere in between the two extremes.

Police officers are not supermen, they are not all crack shots and tactical gurus who can slay a dozen bad guys without coming out with so much as a scratch. For the most part, they are honest people trying to do a difficult job within a complex set of rules that they may not fully understand.
 
Wheel-Gunner,

Let me give you some facts for long term observation, competition (I've been to LEO benifit matches), running LEO qualifications, and friendship with some LEOs.

One, city cops, especially those small towns, tend to not be good shots nor into any kind of skill building. It's the low pay and lack if incentive. They are there for the JOB and uniform. I've even seen them in three gun competition drop shotgun shells all over the ground and fumble the reloading of the scatterguns. All from lack of practice.

I've ran LEO qualifications and seen some do a 'barny fife' draw (the holster rides up with the gun.)

BUT, I can say I've seen FBI Agents who can shoot. Shoot well and fast. And Texas DPS Troopers who know their way around to. It seems state police and federal agents have a much higher standard. I have no doubt some city cops have that same standard but overall the state and feds are uniformly above the grade.

The funny part is when I go shoot at the indoor range, and I do hip shooting, one handed shooting, speed shooting, and just having a ball doing defensive drills, they keep asking me if I'm a cop! I politely say I'm not.

And I'll say, if for some reason I had to lock paws with a fed or trooper (and don't worry LEOs who read this, I'm way way on your side), it would not be a one sided fight!

My hats off the them.
 
I've met a few LEO's that didn't like guns, how do you think that they are going to perform at the range?

I had one SOB whose revolver was out of time and cutting lead with some of it getting past (or through) the double perfboard divider and hitting me. When I informed him that he was cutting, he went on a tirade and told me that he better never see me in traffic. He couldn't shoot for crap either.

There's much more but I really don't like beating up on LEO's. It's like any other profession, there's really good and really bad and fortunately most fall somewhere in the middle.
 
I've known many LEO's and they're just like anyone else. Their opinions and enthusiasm about firearms varies greatly. I have yet to meet a LEO in the US who is absolutely anti-gun. Most of the one's I know own their duty weapon and one or more of the following: a back up, an hunting rifle, an old shotgun in the closet. My father has been a LEO for many years and he has 2 firearms that have been fired since he's been a cop. All the other guns (3-5) are old hunting guns he keeps in the closet. I don't know about every department but my father and most of the LEO's I know only have to qualify once a year. And that's the only time most of them ever shoot. This is primarily because they are not paid nearly enough so they can't afford to spend a lot on ammo that gets more expensive every day. It's also because they work very long hours and different shifts so from balancing work, family, sleep, it leaves little time for the range. I'd say 60% of my local LEO's only fire the 60 or so rounds they need to qualify every year, and nothing more. You don't become an expert marksman like that.

There are exceptions of coarse, like the LEO I know who turned a whole room, not a closet, a whole room in his house into a giant vault with a gigantic time lock door like the banks use. Inside he has a enough firearms and ammunition to literally start and finish a war. He's one of the lucky ones who married a woman that makes more money than I'll ever see in my lifetime. He also spends at least 8 hours a week at the range, and he is one of the best shots I've ever seen.

My own personal experience was when I went with my father and some co-workers when they re-qualified one year. I was 19 or 20 at the time and rode in the car with three of them. There I was in the back seat when one of them said "I really hope nothing happens. I just realized all three of us put our guns in the trunk." I looked around and all three had put all their guns in the trunk of the car to save room and comfort. With my tactical pocket knife I was the best armed person in a car of three LEO's. When we went to the range they all shot and then I finished off a couple of boxes of .380 with my dad's BUG. Comparing targets was a little embarassing for them and I'm no marksman by any standard. I'm not bashing LEO's at all. I respect and thank them for all they do. I'm just saying they're not the professional marksmen Hollywood has made them out to be. Want proof? Just watch videos of all the police shootouts and count gunshots vs. hits.
 
ElectricHellfire said:
Well as long as he didn't shoot you or himself in the leg then call it a good day at the range.
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Do you think he was the only person at the range professional enough to handle a Glock forty? :p
 
Around here most of our LEOs are very good shots but it is a rural area and most of these guys (and a couple of gals) have been shooting and hunting their whole lives. That being said, there are a couple of people working for a local agency that just can't shoot and every qualification they are run through the course numerous times before they make it. I don't agree with it but at least they ride desks and are not on the street. On the plus side, I usually reshoot with them so it gives me time to qualify with several other guns that I carry instead of or in addition to my duty weapon.
 
How could this guy get through a police academy or training program?!?
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Been a police officer for 14 years. Some of the officers I know are excellent shooters. Some just barely qualify and never shoot except when told to do so. In the standard police academy, you get about 40 hours of firearms training (pistol and shotgun). The qualification course is decent but not particularly demanding. The same can be said for the once or twice a year qual course that each agency has.

The truth is (IMO), that most departments don't do enough firearms training for their officers. Officers don't do enough training on their off time. I've given each officer assigned to me the option of going out to the range for an hour or less per shift and put some of their own rounds down range but almost nobody takes advantage of it. Out of the 20 people on my shift, me and the other sergeant are the only ones who own and regularly use a reloader even though I encourage others to do the same.

For some, it'll take a life threatening event to get serious about firearm skills . A few are serious already but some will never take seriously.
 
It happens all the time in PA, at my local indoor range, the cops shoot for free. I usually shoot on saturday mornings when the funds are right. Most times the only people in there are me and a couple of officers. I regularly outshoot the PA cops, but like someone allready said, thats only paper.
 
but like someone allready said, thats only paper.
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Does anyone else find it curious that the assumption is being made that if someone is only a so-so shot at the climate controlled range where they have as much time as they'd like to line up their shot, they're going to somehow improve when; movement, return fire, low light, inclimate weather, or whatever, is introduced into the equation?

Sorry for the run on sentence, but, you get the idea.
 
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