I Don't Think I Buy The "Too Expensive To Make Colt DA Revolvers" Arguement Anymore

Again- invalid comparison.

Nikon is a sizable company with a worldwide customer base and a stable financial structure, and not based in Connecticut.

It'd be helpful if you stop drawing comparisons between apples & horsehoes.

Colt is Colt, a relatively small company, and while it IS reaping the benefits of decades of bad managerial decisions, the DA revolver situation was not one of those.

Denis
 
Ruger was a small company at one time, too. Yet they somehow manage to come up with new ideas all the time, even pushing single shot rifles and single action revolvers. Does Colt have a shortage of ideas?

I looked at the referenced production table. Amazing how many are out there producing guns and just for civilians, too. Of course, none of them are as good as they used to be.
 
Ruger did not have a long history of highs & lows, wartime expansions & post-war contractions, or the burden of out-dated legacy models & designs, not to mention an adherence to older manufacturing methods, to overcome in starting out.

Ruger has never declared bankruptcy, has always been progressive, has enjoyed better management with less arrogance than we saw at Colt prior to the General's administration, is even now adapting to more modern technology in moving to MIM parts, and has never suffered from Colt's convoluted ownership and shaky financial foundation.

Once again, invalid comparison.

Ruger's larger than Colt, has the money to play with.
Denis
 
Dennis -

While just about all you wrote in post #58 above is correct, much of it also applied to the Mustang .380, and Colt brought that back.

I don't think a reborn Python machined on CNC equipment would cost $2,000.
 
Ag,
Colt took another look at what's selling (the concealment market, not the four-inch high-end deluxe DA revolver market) and gambled on the Mustang.
I don't find that surprising. :)

Like I said- you put your money where you think it'll bring the strongest return.

Re Python pricing, a Colt VP told me five years ago they estimated $1500 then.
I can't see even CNC bringing it down below $2000 now.
Denis
 
"I don't think a reborn Python machined on CNC equipment would cost $2,000"

Do you seriously believe that a production line assembly person can take all of those CNC parts and simply assemble them into a functioning Python just like they were assembling a bicycle or ceiling fan?

The Python is a complex mechanism requiring a lot of fine adjustments, not just a metal jigsaw puzzle to be slapped together and pushed out the door. Colt tried that a couple of times and it didn't work too well.

John

P.S. - I wonder, how is S&W doing with those Model 17 Classics that list for $1100? Doesn't everybody just buy a original Model 17 for less? Wouldn't Colt have the same problem with the Python?
 
Colt is a small company. They aren't capable of mass producing high quality revolvers for what anyone would pay for them. S&W revolvers are "good enough". Ruger also makes some acceptable revolvers. Colt is a profitable company - why would they want to take on revolvers which probably have a lower profit margin for them to do it right?
 
pythons (ya know, the ones that are completely unmatched by any other DA .357 in the world)
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winchester_73
So apparently you're new to 357s - welcome - its a great caliber and there are many great 357s to chose from for your first one!
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You sir...make me laugh. I am not...I have several, and the python is tops in MY opinion. It's what I have shot, grown used to ect... blah blah blah. Dare I ask what "others" your referring to (not that it will matter because you one of those "winchester" guys and you opinions cannot be considered or trusted:D (and in case you missing it...that \Winchester thing is a HUGE joke and not intended to be taken seriously;))
 
You sir...make me laugh. I am not...I have several, and the python is tops in MY opinion. It's what I have shot, grown used to ect... blah blah blah. Dare I ask what "others" your referring to (not that it will matter because you one of those "winchester" guys and you opinions cannot be considered or trusted (and in case you missing it...that \Winchester thing is a HUGE joke and not intended to be taken seriously)
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Well to be fair, I think Pythons are nice but not as nice as what many people will say. I don't have many Winchesters and I really like older Savages and Remingtons and I want an early Marlin lever. For revolvers, I prefer S&Ws in 357 OR other Colt models such as the model 357, a trooper, etc. I also like the Dan Wessons.

You might be experienced in 357s, but the majority of people who are well experienced with revolvers agree that the Python is pretty over rated. However, this is not always true.

I do want a 1950s Python. Got one of those?
 
Just (had:() dads 70s. I've never really cared for S&W...I love the 40s guns but just don't really care for anything else of theirs...I don't really know why either, they just don't feel good to me. I'll agree with you on the Dan Wesson. Dad had a DW kit gun. The only Smith I've ever REALLY wanted...Is an 8" 586 Distinguished Combat . And I think that's really just because of the name:D
 
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Just dads 70s. I've never really cared for S&W...I love the 40s guns but just don't really care for anything else of theirs...I don't really know why either, they just don't feel good to me. I'll agree with you on the Dan Wesson. Dad had a DW kit gun. The only Smith I've ever REALLY wanted...Is a 586 Distinguished Combat . And I think that's really just because of the name
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Interesting...nearly all of the 1940s production was military contract stuff. I suppose you mean before WWII or after or ? Maybe its because you're not well versed in them that you don't like them? You know they have several different grip types just like Colt or any other maker?

I never heard of a DW kit gun. Hopefully he doesn't sell it, as it could be a rare factory prototype.

Here is my 586 distinguished combat magnum. Its a 4 in nickel no dash, an uncommon variant. It has an excellent SA trigger and a smooth DA trigger. 586s were only blue or nickel, while the 686 was SS.

GEDC4677.jpg
 
No...I meant I like the WWII models. The victory model 10 is my favorite. Yes I'm well versed in the frames. And sadly yes, the kit gun is long gone...it was some kind of a dealer special spurred by dirty harry movies (he used to sell, mostly gun shows but had a small shop also)...it was sold with many many more special guns....ones you'd be very hard pressed to replace now. That may not have been the real name of it...but it's what he and his business partner called it. It's also what the supplier had it listed as.
 
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It would be an interesting challenge for a CNC machinist to take the Python blueprints (or reverse engineer a Python) and see if a comparable clone could be made using entirely CNC machining and minimal hand-fitting.....
 
Colt is Colt
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I get it. Colt is absolutely, positively incomparable to any other company in the world.

Pray, if Nikon is too big, what is wrong with the Leica comparison?

Talk about not wanting to see anything but your own opinion! :eek:

BTW, Nikon is a "sizable company with a worldwide customer base and a stable financial structure" because they make intelligent marketing and engineering choices. It didn't begin big.
 
It seems everyone wants a Python, but not one that could conceivably be made today to sell at a reasonable price. Even if the new Python would look and feel exactly like the old one, it would not have the "soul of the Python" and so would be despised by Colt fans.

As to military/LE guns, Colt has always gone first for the government contract for the simple reason that that is where the money is. Their mistake has been to totally kiss off the civilian market and that has hurt them when competition for military contracts comes not just from U.S. companies but from overseas (FNH, Beretta), even if foreign companies have to establish U.S. manufacturing facilities, something fairly easy to do today.

Certainly it makes sense to want a contract for a million identical guns, even if the profit per gun is smaller, vs selling a quarter million of a dozen different models at more profit per item. But when the military contracts go to someone else, and the company has let its civilian production lapse, the company is in deep trouble.

Jim
 
While virtually everyone makes a copy of either a Colt Single Action Army or a Government Model, no one that I know of has attempted to make a copy of a Colt double-action revolver. Pity.
 
Mic,
Colt is Colt.
Colt has multiple ownership, is located in a gun-unfriendly state, has a union presence to deal with in everyday operations, is actually TWO companies, and is a shadow of its former self.

Colt produces a limited number of product lines that are not marketed worldwide to the average citizen, as a camera is. Most of Colt's products are not even allowed to be owned by the average citizen in much of the world beyond our borders.

Comparing a gunmaker to a camera maker is invalid right off the bat.
Further comparisons to Ruger, Smith & Wesson, and other major names like Remington, "Winchester", Browning, and so on are also irrelevant.

Ruger started off with innovation and has remained innovative & unhampered by top-heavy management with extreme arrogance & resistance to changes in the market (as Colt had prior to the crash in the 90s). Ruger has never endured wartime booms & post-war busts, as the older names like Colt did.

Smith & Wesson didn't have the illustrious & very market savvy Sam Colt as its founder, but did produce marketable products initially that did well enough to keep them going until they developed the great M&P DA revolver action a hundred years ago that remained viable much longer (till today, in fact) than Colt's roughly comparable-in-age V-Springs that were not as durable & obsoleted themselves model-by-model until they were simply no longer viable by 2000.
S&W took over the DA revolver market steadily after WWII, and steadily left Colt in the dust.

Ruger was always technologically ahead of Colt in DAs, S&W has been able to adapt their basic design well enough with slight changes here & there along with better heat treatment & advances in alternative technology to still be a leader in the field today with a basic design that's well over a hundred years old.
Colt's V-Springs were not as durable, and did not adapt well to alternative technologies.

The public did not accept Colt's more recent MKIII & MKV DA revolvers in sufficiently large volume to keep them in production.
During the 1990s Colt was forced to reduce its work force substantially, it wasn't just the products that were let go.

Colt has been operating on a shoestring ever since, and has been making steady progress, but still is a relatively small outfit with limited operating capital & limited manufacturing resources. They offer a line of 1911s, a limited number of Peacemakers each year, and those are backed up & hard to find on gunshop shelves.
They can't keep up with parts for their own handguns on occasion & swap out of model-specs when they can't here & there.
They list parts for sale on their website that they don't have.

The "civilian" side of Colt has been for sale more than once during recent years, but there are legal entanglements over branding and intellectual properties & nobody has been willing to pay what Colt wants.
Had it not been for the military contracts, Colt would either be gone completely or operating as a licensed name by a third party by now.

They've been able to pull off expensive CNC equipment upgrades, starting with roughly $5 mil 8 or 9 years ago, and more recently $4 to $6 mil (depending on who you talk to) for the handgun side.
Colt Mfg. still buys their "civilian" ARs from Colt Defense for sale to the public at large.

Meanwhile, sales have been so steady with Ruger and S&W that they've both been able to expand over the years, rather than contract as Colt has, with extensive product lines beyond their DA revolvers.
Both have remained financially stable.
Both have sufficient capital for R&D, production capacity to bring out new products, and the financial base to absorb failures. Colt has none of that.

Boiling it down, it's all Colt can do to stay afloat with essentially two "ancient" handguns and a 60-year-old rifle.
For whatever reason, new Colt handgun designs have not been well-received in general, and older handgun designs like the Python are not do-able for a company with little money to gamble with and limited production capability to try to market in a market that wants small plastic autoloaders.

No other American gunmaker has the same business history as Colt, no other American gunmaker has the same problems now as Colt.

Comparing Colt to Nikon is unrealistic on many levels.
Colt can't bring back a limited edition "goodwill" Python because of all the costs involved that I mentioned previously, and all the goodwill on the planet won't sell more existing guns that Colt can't keep up with now, won't bring buyers in droves to buy plastic autoloaders that Colt doesn't make, and won't enable Colt to re-introduce a Python as a profit-sustainable model.

In your Nikon example, goodwill MIGHT induce a buyer looking for a camera to either switch to Nikon or remain with Nikon because of warm fuzzies, but that'd only be possible because Nikon has a wide customer base around the world, a wide range of products from amateur to professional, a wide range of pricing structures, a good range of Nikon-produced (or at least branded) accessory support THAT'S READILY AVAILABLE EITHER LOCALLY OR ONLINE, continuing product development that keeps pace with technological advancement, AND the money to gamble on new products or absorb the loss on a sprint run of obsolete models to obtain that goodwill you refered to earlier.

Colt has none of that.

In many ways, Colt IS unique.
Denis
 
While virtually everyone makes a copy of either a Colt Single Action Army or a Government Model, no one that I know of has attempted to make a copy of a Colt double-action revolver. Pity.
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There is a substantial market for SAA clones,,,
Just SASS alone will support that demand.

But if some company started building Python clones,,,
I would bet people would say "But they're not real Colts." and ignore them.

It's all about demand for the product,,,
SAA clones have demand from re-enactment groups,,,
As well as from every Lone Ranger wannabe in this country.

No Iconic character or group from our past or fiction,,,
Ever made the Colt DA's popular enough to become iconic in and of themselves.

Sure they could be built by Colt or another company,,,
But there isn't enough widespread demand to justify the endeavor.

I wold love to see S&W start making the Model 45 Post Office again,,,
But me and the few others who would like one aren't enough to justify the expense.

Aarond

.
 
Even in the SAA clones, CAS has peaked & will lose much of the market force it's had in the next five years.
Denis
 
No Iconic character or group from our past or fiction,,,
Ever made the Colt DA's popular enough to become iconic in and of themselves.
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Maybe if "the walking dead" gets big enough they'll bring back the python.
Of course, not many people probably even recognize a python when they see one at this point.
 
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