Hunting in brush heavy areas?

there is no caliber restriction in idaho. the only restriction is that rimfire cartridges are not allowed. you could hunt with a 204 ruger if you wanted. with that said, heavy brush is a pain to navigate with most guns over your shoulder. you either need a gun with a shorter barrel, or the forward sling swivel needs to be higher up the barrel. a lever action carbine would be a great gun, 30-30, 44 mag, or 45 colt would be great cartridges in that setup. for bolt actions, a shorter compact like a ruger M77 compact would do wonders in something like a 243 or 7.62x39mm.

with that said. I've done brush hunting with obeselete military carbines like the type 44 arisaka and 1895 steyr carbine where the sling swivels run higher on the barrel and I have little difficulty but I wouldn't recommend 6.5 japanese or 8x56R unless you are an avid reloader and don't mind goofballs.
 
Seems like a bullpup type rifle would make a great 'brush gun' less length, without sacrificing barrel length.
I believe the MSAR has a bullpup in 300blackout, and Steyr is rumored to be releasing the AUG in .300BLK.

As we know .300blackout is pretty much the ballistic twin of .30-30 and 7.62x39, so pretty much any game that you find the .30-30 suitable for, the .300BLK should work equally well. You also have semi auto capabilities incase you ever need a follow up which gives you an advantage over bolt and lever guns. Throw a reflex or red dot sight on it, and you've now got better visibility than with irons, and no 'over magnification' for closer shots.

The MSAR's are 26.5-27.5'' in length, total. That's with a 16.5 or 18.5'' barrel, which is a few inches shorter than an M4 with the stock retracted and 16'' bbl. It's also over half a foot shorter than a Henry lever action 'carbine' with 16.125'' bbl and the even smaller Henry lever action, 'Youth rifle'
 
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um, not intending to start a peeing match but...
300 BLK is the twin of 30-30 and 7.62x39? no.
30-30 and 7.62x39 aren't really twins themselves. 30-30 normally uses bullets in the 170gr range while 7.62x39mm uses almost exlusively a 123gr bullet. both travel about the same muzzle velocity give or take a hundred FPS but the energy that a 30-30 has at the muzzle and maintains to 200 yards is far superior to 7.62x39. one may argue that most 30-30s use a flat tip or round nosed bullet that has a lower ballistic coefficient of a spitzer from a 7.62x39 but lever evolution ammo and other lever action safe spitzer type designs really allow the 30-30 to shine and really overtake the 7.62x39.

with all that said. 300 BLK was developed, and is primarily marketed as a SBR/suppressor friendly cartridge. it uses a heavy bullet of similar weight to 30-30 but at much lower velocities than your average off the wall 30-30 or 7.62x39 hunting load. hand loaders can overcome this by loading lighter bullets and pushing them to the limits and essentially equal a 7.62x39 but if a person does not reload it will never equal a 7.62x39 and regardless will never equal a 30-30.
 
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300 BLK is the twin of 30-30 and 7.62x39? no.
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+1.

300BLK < 7.62x39 < .30/30 in terms of muzzle energy.

300BLK gets a 125gr bullet to 2200 f/sec, if loaded hot.

7.62x39 gets a 123gr bullet to 2400, if loaded hot.

.30/30WIN gets a 170 gr bullet to 2200, or a 150gr bullet to 2400, if loaded hot.
 
I'd rather not start a peeing match either.

With that said, it should be noted that .300BLK and 7.62x39 loads are typically chrono'd with 16'' barrels while most 30-30 loads are chrono'd with 20-24'' barrel, which is where some of the velocity difference comes from, it does have more powder capacity than both, though. Also, the Lever evolution bullets are nowhere near as streamlined as the .310 and .308 projectiles available for the .300 and x39, considering their weight. They're more streamlined than the classic .30-30 projectiles, but the ogive is still pretty short, giving the bullet a somewhat 'stubby' nose. The 160 grain FTX(G1 .330) barely has a higher BC than the .310 SST (G1 .295) despite a significant weight advantage. The 140 grain monoflex, has an inferior BC (G1 .277) despite having a weight and diameter advantage, as well. 125 grain .308 Accubond has a G1 BC of .366

You are correct that, if you want to venture away from the 125 grain bullets (in .300blk), which I believe are available in factory loads, but you'd have to hand load if you want something different. Anyway a 125 grain soft point fired at 2200fps should be just fine inside 100 yards, for deer.



.30/30WIN gets a 170 gr bullet to 2200, or a 150gr bullet to 2400, if loaded hot.
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I just did a quick web search for 30-30 hand loads, and could only find one load just a hair above 2300fps with a 150 grain projectile. I should note that I was looking at 20'' barrel loads. A barrel that's 4'' shorter would likely have significantly less velocity, and wouldn't be too far off from some 7.62x39 150 grain loads, which can exceed 2200fps with hand loads, in a 16'' barrel.

7.62x39 load data
150 Sierra IMR IMR-4198 FPS 2233
150 Sierra Norma N-200 FPS 2314
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Source: http://www.loaddata.com/members/sea...berid=51&header=7.62mm Caliber Reloading Data

Sorry didn't mean to drag this off topic, I just don't think down range it's going to make a huge difference and it should make a suitable 'brush gun' cartridge, if people believe the .30-30 is sufficient.
 
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I just did a quick web search for 30-30 hand loads, and could only find one load just a hair above 2300fps with a 150 grain projectile
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hodgdon lists a 150gr load with a max load of 2512FPS and another with a max of 2409fps(with 24" barrels).

they also list 7.62x39 as tested with a 24 inch barrel and the hottest load with a 125gr bullet is 2404FPS, 150 has a maximum listed 2192FPS.

sorry, they don't have published 300 BLK data so I can't see how that stacks up but my comments were really geared towards factory ammo anyway where 300 blk is normally loaded with 208-240gr ammo unless you are buying match ammo when people just load it up with their standard 147gr 30 cal match bullet. of the lightweight, hunting ammo I've been able to find, remington hog hammer 110grs are traveling a blazing 2400fps while gorrilla brand 125grs are loaded to 2200fps. switching gears to 30-30 160gr leverevolution is going 2400fps while a 170gr federal vitalshok is going 2200fps, a pretty big difference in energy.
 
I just did a quick web search for 30-30 hand loads, and could only find one load just a hair above 2300fps with a 150 grain projectile.
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Dunno how extensive your search was .... my Lee 2nd ed. lists more than a dozen 150gr loads above 2300 f/sec .... 33gr of H335 worked for me.
 
When you're talking ranges of 30 to 50 yards in thick cover, one's ability to get on target "instanter" and fire an accurate shot is the main requisite. This is helped by the proverbial "light and handy" firearm. In this case, almost any cartridge will suffice, although I'd not choose a .32-20. :)

Pragmatically, I'd want enough cartridge such that a less-than-perfect hit would at least put the deer on the ground and allow a follow-up coup de grace shot. For that reason I'd go with a .30-30 type of power level; maybe even more.

Which, of course, IMO means pick your shot or pass up the "maybe-not" sort.
 
Another vote for 30-30. I'd replace the rear sight with a full buckhorn so you can use it as a ghost ring.
 
Not all running or moving deer shot opportunities are created equal, I have taken several deer on the run/move and passed on many more. Its a decision that is made in an instant in on more than one occasion my instincts reacted with the rifle hitting my shoulder even though I never took the shot. Not all short firearms are created equal either, the comment about the rifle being quick and "instanter" to the shoulder is dead on, I wouldn't be able to get a bull-pup type rifle to my shoulder nearly as fast as I could a plain jane Rem 700. Partly because of a lot of years living with a Rem700, and because each of us is built a little differently. I shot a deer one time with my old 700 in .280 Rem as it was feeding in a little creek bottom about 75 yards away, at the shot it bolted toward me and started up little notch that lead out into an open area, I cycled the bolt and waited for him to appear, never came up. Died half way up the bank. Went back to where I was standing later to recover my brass (yeah I'm one of those guys) I knew exactly where I was standing next to a big bale of hay. No empty brass to be found, finally stuck my hand in my jacket pocket and there was the empty, I know I never picked it up off the ground, somewhere along the line I caught it and put it in my pocket (yeah I actually pacticed it a little after reading a story about Rick Jamison) but never intentionally did it while hunting. That is something that goes along with a lot of use and familiarity with the platform. I love a nice lever action but for me, it just isn't as fast to the shot, but that is me, my AR love it but can't mount/shoot it as quick either, doesn't mean it is or is not the right tool for someone else just not me at this point.
 
Not all running or moving deer shot opportunities are created equal
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The original post was heavy brush so its a moot point. In places like this you can pretty much forget a running shot.

 
My brush gun is a browning BLR in 358win. What I require is a short rifle with a bullet that will hold together if I do hit wood. I have gone through a 10" cedar and killed deer behind it. It was a 75 yd. shot. I like a 1-4 Lepold on low setting I can handle a running deer at 10 ft.
 
Longshot4, how refreshing to see somebody else with real experience with a "Brush gun". I sent a 7x57 140 gr SP right through a green maple tree that was about 8" thick. I was swinging on a running deer and the tree just happened to be there about 15 feet in front of me. I get tired of armchair experts talking about "The pegboard test". I never saw a pegboard in the woods. My Buddy shotgunned a deer and the slug hit a tree first. He actually found pieces of wood in the deer when he cut it up.
 
i used to have a neighbor who knew little about guns.he shot a bear at 30 yards in the neck and it didnt kill him.with a 30-30 why not go for a heart shot,not to mention go and buy the 170gr as well.

he is the greatest hunter i have ever met.he could track a deer for hours and he knew every place in the area that had what for animals.he knew where the deer where and knew where the bears where(just didnt know how to kill one with a 30-30).he could read the signs of the woods better than anyone i ever met.

its all about tracking deer and in the off season watching deer in the bushes,forget guns
 
what to use

A 12 gage, some lever action but you also said you were planning on packing a hand gun too so if you are planning on packing a .357 or .44 magnum you could just hunt with a handgun.
 
Use whatever rifle you're comfortable with and if it's really heavy cover terrain - then be prepared to track and possibly lose that animal unless you get a cns strike or break both front shoulders.

In heavy brush that goes for miles - I'll sacrifice a couple pounds of meat and take the shoulders out, as opposed to making a great "boiler room" shot and hope for a good blood trail. Snow on the ground makes it a lot easier for tracking but a well constructed bullet in the shoulders normally ends that task.

Dragging anything uphill is a real PITA, as is dragging anything further than you needed to. Quartering or deboning an elk in thick cover is no picnic, so take a little time and talk to your buddy and see what he does, as a 45-70 in the boiler room usually has the same effect as a 300 mag and that is the animal takes off at warp speed and piles up at a later time - sometimes 10 yards away and sometimes a quarter mile or so from where you wanted him to go down.:)
 
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