Hunting Ethics

[shortwave]

Big Yac,

Glad to see a fellow Ohioan here.

Especially one with some apparent great hunting values.

Kudo's to you for setting your standards and sticking by them. Hunting in Tuscarawus Co., your day for your trophy will surely come. Hopefully sooner then you think.

You'd be welcome at my camp anytime.

I think my good friend Pahoo said it wisely in his post and is worth repeating:

We teach that the foundation of an individuals hunting code, should be the hunting laws of our state. These are based on ethical and moral principles. Hardly ever perfect but certainly fair,good and equitable. What happens in the field after our classes can only be controlled by individuals conduct. If any hunter can't even get passed that, then there is really something wrong....

Pahoo, Hope you don't mind I emboldened a few sentences.

Here's another 'law versus ethical' situation I was personally involved in.
I'll keep it short:
A fella we'll call 'Bud' was turkey hunting. He had one turkey tag. He let out a few purrs from his call standing on top of a ridge overlooking a very densely,thicket covered hillside that went into a deep ravine. A gobbler answered back. Gobbler was halfway down the hill and Bud knew gobbler was traveling on a major deer trail going towards a powerline which crossed the ravine.
Bud runs and sits up on the powerline, continuing to call and lure the gobbler to him. Worked like a charm. The gobbler got to the powerline and was following a deer trail up the powerline towards Bud. Bud still couldn't see him cause there was a small 3ft. tall mound of dirt between Bud and gobbler. Bud called tom up the hill and when toms head and neck cleared the top of the mound, Bud shot. Dead bird.
The problem was, directly behind Buds tom was another tom that Bud didn't see or know was there. This second toms head/neck was directly behind the first and was killed also.

Now legally, Ohio's law does not permit Bud to keep the 2nd tom as he's only got one tag.

I know what Bud did, but I ask you...

...does Bud illegally keep and eat the second gobbler or let it rot in the field?

 

[Big Yac]

shortwave,

Thanks, like I said sometimes I feel alittle embarrassed that I havent got anything yet but I'm sure it'll happen. Actually I've been practicing with a bow so by next season my chances should go up since I'll do both gun and bow hunting. I see you're in SE Ohio, where abouts? How are the deer down that way? My deer shortfall has more than been made up with by turkeys, we have a good turkey population up here too.

 

[shortwave]

Big Yac,

Don't be embarrassed. With proper scouting, your day will come. Especially during bow season.

Actually not that far SE.

I'm right on the Fairfield, Hocking Co. line not far from Old Man's Cave area.

The deer population in this area is great. Unfortunately, being so close to Cols.O, so is the hunter population. I refuse to gun hunt public land down this way cause its more like a war zone.

 

[Major Dave (retired)]

A comment about shooting "after hours"

In Texas, legal shooting hours go to 1/2 hour after sunset.

Legally.

But, in my opinion, in the thick piney woods of East Texas, the "gloom of night" begins about sunset, if not 1/2 hour earlier. Depends on cloud cover.

So, when I am hunting public land, I start back toward my parked truck no later than sunset - because - I don't trust other hunters to be sure they don't shoot me, thinking I am a deer. Even though I am (legally) dressed in a blaze orange hat and vest.

Once, I was headed back along a power line right of way (kept mowed down to ankle level) at sunset, and came upon a man and his young son sitting on the power line, watching for deer. He scolded me for ruining their hunt. He told me the last half hour was the best shooting time. I told him the light was too dim to clearly be sure of your target. He disagreed. I went on to my truck. He and his son stayed put.

I shutter to think that that fool would have my life in his hands right up to 1/2 hour after sunset!

I was legal - he was legal, but I think ONE of us was unethical.

What say YOU? Opinions, please.

 

[shortwave]

IMO, if it's to dark to clearly make out your target and the background behind target, it's just unethical to keep hunting.

MD,

I know what you mean about going to/coming from your stand.

FWIW... when I enter or leave the woods, even on my own property, I always turn a light on. Usually the kind that clips onto the bill of my hat. There's been times when I used to hunt public land that I wished I had a boom box blasting on my shoulder.

I was very proud of my brother this shotgun season as he had a 45yd. broadside shot on the wall hanger I've been bow hunting. But it was to early and he couldn't clearly make out his front site. Brother was mad but he restrained himself and didn't sling any lead. Deer walked off. Brother was so upset he came back to the house about 0900.

I don't blame him for being upset as this deer has an enormous,heavy rack in the high teens and the deer weighs every bit of 300lbs. Could brother have hit the deer, most likely. Would it have been a humane,ethical shot...not in my opinion and proudly to say, my brothers either.

 

[Gbro]

For M-D,

What say YOU? Opinions, please.

I fully agree with you, however being it is an ethical issue we can just politely excuse ourselves in a situation like this and taking this situation you relate, that adult with his youngster wasn't going to take any suggestion no matter how well intended or needed.
No matter how hard it is to bite our tongue and keep our advise to ourselves in the field unless invited, a sorry about that is all I myself say.
Edit;
The title of your post is misleading.

 

[tahunua001]

ok somewhere down the line we hit a detour... I fail to see where pot sales coincide with hunting ethics... this discussion, which never did seem to steer towards the question I asked, has sadly degenerated.

here's my take on it.
1. a law is a law, not a guideline, not a suggestion, but a law. breaking it does not necessarily make you unethical, it makes you a criminal.

2. many laws are arbitrary, it does not mean that you should be encouraged to break it but you should be encouraged to fight it if it does not serve any real purpose.

3. cannabis is legal in certain regions with a prescription, not that it ever had anything to do with this thread in the first place.

4. hunters safety should not teach hunting laws. that is the responsibility of the individual hunter to educate himself on. laws change every year and differ from region to region, hunters safety/education curriculum should not. the whole reason of hunters education is to teach proper firearms handling, tracking, game identification and differentiation, navigation and survival, and proper game handling. hunting ethics, hunting laws and little arbitrary and subjective terms and discussions should be left out IMHO. those are all things that need to be left up to the individual hunter.

5. this thread is slipping dangerously into the realm of political. it's been a while since I read the terms and conditions here on TFL but I could swear that those type of topics are off limits. can we please try to steer back to the difference between...ah....I give up!

 

[briandg]

1. a law is a law, not a guideline, not a suggestion, but a law. breaking it does not necessarily make you unethical, it makes you a criminal.

Law was created to benefit group happiness and prosperity.
Therefore, laws must be presumed to have been created to benefit society as a whole.
Nobody is capable of choosing which laws are improper or unjust, unnecessary, or simply not meant for himself, and should be disobeyed.
one cannot break laws with impunity simply because it is thought to be an unjust law.
Breaking any law, in that situation, is a clear case of setting one's own personal desires above the needs of society.
To do so goes against common definitions of ethical behavior.

We could dissect all of the common systems of philosophy, but this is an accurate chain of reason, showing that breach of social contract by breaking a law is, in fact, unethical behavior.

When an individual doubts a law, he has a moral obligation to protest that law. protesting is ethical. violation, even as a source of protest, is still setting one's own beliefs, desires and actions against the needs of society.

2. many laws are arbitrary, it does not mean that you should be encouraged to break it but you should be encouraged to fight it if it does not serve any real purpose.

I honestly haven't seen what I could declare an "arbitrary" law, defined as a law that was written with no purpose, benefit, or proper, logical consideration given to the regulation. If a speed limit seems arbitrary, it probably isn't, much information was gathered and considered before that school zone was posted at 20 mph. Shooting after sun goes under the horizon, 15 minute later, a half hour, or even 24/7? These laws were all written after considering hunting conditions. The fact that different states use different laws is not at all proof that it was an arbitrary decision, it is only evidence that many different groups studied the same problem and came up with different answers.

It would be nice if we could just create a no-shoot time chart, and require every hunter to wear an accurate watch, then arrest anyone with a loaded weapon after that no-shoot time comes around. instead, hunters are put on a system of honorable behavior, and expected to behave ethically. Rather than setting hard fast rules, generally, you have a period of hunting shutdown that will allow benefit of doubt. Really, when a matter of 50 feet north or south may decide whether or not the sun has set behind that rise, is it better to have a solid restriction, or a little flex?

 

[Gunplummer]

Hey Ohio,

I never hunted in Ohio, but I thought there was quite a bit of open land to hunt. Am I wrong? Maybe you should get away from the roads and try farther in. I hunt public land and not until the end of the first week because of my schedule. I have good years and bad years, but I don't make up crap about other hunters to cover my laziness. I don't need a lesson in hunting manners from someone that probably does not even know what a deer looks like except from the T.V. You want to go wound a bunch of deer with a bow because you can't get one with a rifle? Yeah, that is real ethical. A couple of us do a cheap hunt in West Virginia every year. Camp out in tents no matter what the weather. The first day I went out in the morning and moved around most of the day. Did not see one hunter till I went back to camp. There is so much open land out there it is unbelievable. Learn how to use a compass and hit the slopes.

 

[shortwave]

Gunplummer,

I never hunted in Ohio, but I thought there was quite a bit of open land to hunt. Am I wrong?

Yep...
...now, you mind elaborating on the rest of your post?

Don't understand the unwarranted accusations or the hostile,somewhat offensive tone of your post towards Ohio hunters in general....
.... Or, am I wrong about your post title, Hey Ohio, and you were directing your hostile post in response to something an Ohio poster here stated that may have offended you? If so, who?

 

[briandg]

Oh, shortwave?

isn't ohio full of private farms full of corn? private farms that keep hunters out, maybe? That's what I would guess, it's not like there are thousands of acres of public land just sitting around all over the state, at least looking at the maps...

Regarding the turkey? I haven't a clue. would he take the second hit in to the checkin station (if they have them in his state) and then hand it over? That'd get him totally off the hook here. Accidental kills are forgiven here if you turn them in, but I have no idea what'll happen to him between the scene of the crime and the check in station.

Accidents aren't immoral. I can't say what the "moral and ethical" thing would be to do with the extra bird. I don't think leaving it there would be the right thing to do, unless that is what the law states that he has to do. Then, there really isn't a decision to make. I'd follow the letter of the law, would be my answer, even if it isn't what I want to do. It'd make me mad, and I'd probably complain about it.

I don't really have anything left to say. Writing papers on this sort of stuff gave me headaches for 3 or 4 years at MSSU. I at least got paid when I was tutoring students on the subjects.

 

[2damnold4this]

It would be nice if we could just create a no-shoot time chart, and require every hunter to wear an accurate watch, then arrest anyone with a loaded weapon after that no-shoot time comes around.

Why don't we just charge people who actually shoot after legal hours?

There are two different types of criminal offenses. Malum in se and malum prohibitum. Malum in se refers to offenses that are wrong by their very nature and malum prohibitum refers to something that is wrong because it is prohibited.

 

[2damnold4this]

Oh, shortwave? I haven't a clue. would he take the second hit in to the checkin station (if they have them in his state) and then hand it over? That'd get him totally off the hook here. Accidental kills are forgiven here if you turn them in, but I have no idea what'll happen to him between the scene of the crime and the check in station.

That's a good point. If you break a law because you think ethics requires it, you'd better be prepared to take your punishment.

 

[shortwave]

...would he take the second hit in to the checkin station...

No. Ohio's game check stations are primarily all private owned business's. If you would take an animal to a check station without a tag, the hunter may as well call DNR his/her self as this is what will happen at the check station.

This turkey incident with 'Bud' happened many years ago and is something a fella should probably talk to his DNR people about prior to it happening so as to know how to handle a situation like this.

A friend of mine owns a gun shop that's also a check station and from time to time gets calls from deer hunters that have taken broadside, heart/lung shots at deer only to have the slugs pass through and hit a deer they didn't see standing behind targeted deer.

He usually tells them, "you have one tag,bring me one deer...you have two tags, bring me two deer", and leaves it at that.

In a situation like the turkey scenario, ethically, it would be very hard for me to just leave a game animal in the field to rot knowing I caused its death purely accidentally. I'd have to find a way to check it or something.

Guess a phone call to ODNR is in order,eh!

As far as Gunplummers questions/comments about Ohio, our hunting land, laws or hunters here, just kinda waiting on his response to my post as to where he's coming from. A response may not even be warranted.

 

[briandg]

When you find yourself in the situation of having bagged an extra deer or turkey by accident, and have no choice but leaving it in the field to avoid prosecution, keep this in mind.

Raccoons, possums, coyotes, crows, buzzards, bobcats, foxes, and all of the other carnivores will be happy to dive into a turkey carcass, and if you're in a cool season, it will stay nice and fresh and healthy for a week or two. It won't go completely to waste. It may even feed the predators that would ordinarily have killed another one, and by doing that, spare the life of other game animals.

This isn't the same as shooting a deer, taking the head home, and leaving the rest behind.

 

[Art Eatman]

Enough wandering. Dunno what Ohio issues have to do with anything.