How to Properly Polish a Feed Ramp

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fredvon4 said:
I did not view the video
I do not think for any of my store bought guns I would mess with the chamber on purpose... if it is malfunctioning and under warranty.. you get the idea

ON the other hand I have a CZ 75 9mm and a Tarus PT 1911 .45 that did not eat SOME ammo as well as others...internet search suggested dragging FEED RAMP... within my skill set to polish... problem solved...for me

Dremel, felt and cloth buff, various compounds, mirror smooth....happiness....I very seriously doubt I removed .005 metal...but did make each able to eat all the cheap crap ammo I am feeding them
Click to expand...
Your right the biggest noticeable difference is when shooting steel cased ammo as steel is harder than brass and when it expands into the chamber it does not contract again like brass so the smoothness of the chamber wall really helps.
 
First: I have respect for the Colorado School of Trades in Trinidad,Colorado.
I do not intend to bash them in any way.

I have considerable "credential" when id comes to polishing steel. I understudied one of the best mold and Die finishers in the USA. Like Mr DeShivs,I just may have more knowledge and experience at SOME ASPECTS of polishing steel than the instructors at Trinidad have.

I have no doubt that I am NOT the expert at making money polishing to blue guns. That is not my field.

I was trained and gained my experience on steel plastic injection mold cavities. Dimensional tolerances are tighter than nearly all gun work. Generally in the .001 or less range.Cosmetics are critical.When you look at a reblue gun for waviness,distorted reflections...look at the surfaces of high end consumer plastic products ,particularly clear products.
I get you mirror reflection of the cue-tip. We carefully study the mirror for distortion.
As a matter of fact,there are satellites in orbit that don't use wires or fibers for signal communication. They use light beams and mirrors. The mirrors are made of tungsten carbide. The total tolerance for flatness on those mirrors is
.0001 I know all this because I hand polished them. Customer feedback: Mine were the best they ever got.

Foredoms are good tools. I have a couple. One has the low range. I also have a big brother. Its a 1/2 hp 10,000 RPM version I use with rock hard felt wheels I cut with a hole saw and mount myself. It also drives 1 in Tampico fiber re-enforced end brushes.

Do you know what a DME profiler is? Probably don't have them at gunsmith school.
Its a cable drive hand tool,like a Fordom. Only it makes linear strokes. 0-14000 of them a minute,and 0-6mm stroke. It has a pistol grip and a variable eccentric.
That drives stones and laps.I have one,and know how to use it.
I don't own the Gesswein ultrasonic polishing tools,but I have used them.

Typically I would work from a machined ,ground,or EDM finish. We actually ,for example ,would burn a cavity to a specific EDM fin,say a 125. We would know that meant the "texture",high to low spots had a value of just over .001. Plus you have to remove about another .0005 of recast steel.To end up with the correct dimensions,we might leave .0015 to .002 to polish off.

A basic of polishing is that you begin with a uniform finish. Ground,machined,EDM,I don't care. It has peaks and valleys. We cut the peaks off without deepening the valleys.We do that by crossing the valleys.
As we reduce the peaks,we watch the valleys.The instant the valley disappears,we are done. Even polish is controlled by watching the valleys fade. That's how you hold dimension and flatness.
There is such a thing as polishing rouge. It uses rounded rocks. These are intended to burnish rather than cut.
But most polishing compunds use sharp rocks that cut. Silicon Carbide,aluminum oxide,etc. These are "cut" or "Cut and color" compounds.

And they DO remove steel.I do not use those. I cannot afford to have a larger rock,or a clump of rocks bugger up my work. I use diamond mold polishing compound.
In fact,while I recommend the Gesswein type polishing stones,for real work I use "puddle stones" The commercial stones are pressed and vitrified.They CAN break down to a clump of rocks,leaving scratches in the work. Maddening! Wet or dry sandpaper will do that,too.
Puddle stones are made by sifting tightly controlled grit in water and letting it naturally settle.That mud is dried and baked. We sawed our stones out of those blocks. They are similar to some Japanese water stones.


An old saying in the trade: "Indicators don't lie,and liars don't indicate"
No,I'm not calling you a liar.

You try this. Start with a piece of flat machined or ground steel.Maybe 1 or 2 in by 3 or 4 in. Doesn't matter much. Ideally,put it on a surface plate and use a height gauge and a .0001 indicator just to see what you have. No surface plate? Use your micrometer.
Then you do your best to polish the whole thing to look like a fine,optical mirror.Not a carnival mirror,but a non-distorted,accurate mirror.
Now go back and use your indicator again,or your mic. You WILL see a measurable change.Nothing else is possible.

Your chamber polishing: Did you take any measurements before you began? Or after? How can you claim to have had no effect? My .0001 indicator will measure a stripe of magic marker ink. Wipe the ink off,you have removed material.

You worked a while inside that chamber. Then there was a break in the vid,an edit. How long? You were working blind. How can you gauge when you cut enough?When to stop? Talk and assumptions come cheap. In fact,you don't know how much you cut.
Try playing with some CerroSafe. Cast your chamber. Get your mic out...IF you can get the casting out.

I'm not trying to have a whizzing contest or put you down . I'm trying to pass some knowledge and experience to you.

I agree with Mr DeShivs.He is a custom knifemaker,among other things. He does know about polishing.

I had issues with your trigger job,and now you are ,I'm sure,in good faith,advising folks to Dremel their chambers and feedramps.

As I said,I'm sure it well meaning.

IMO,for an "Everyman" DYI chamber "smoothing"...think about how firelapping works. Brass is used for laps because grit embeds in it.
HMMM? So if we rolled maybe 20 to 40 rounds of brass between plates charged with a high grade polishing grit,maybe 600-1200-or so,then wiped off excess...How would it be to just shoot those?They'd smooth and clean both feeding and extracting,.....The high spots would get knocked off,huh?
 
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HiBC said:
First: I have respect for the Colorado School of Trades in Trinidad,Colorado.
I do not intend to bash them in any way.

I have considerable "credential" when id comes to polishing steel. I understudied one of the best mold and Die finishers in the USA. Like Mr DeShivs,I just may have more knowledge and experience at SOME ASPECTS of polishing steel than the instructors at Trinidad have.

I have no doubt that I am NOT the expert at making money polishing to blue guns. That is not my field.

I was trained and gained my experience on steel plastic injection mold cavities. Dimensional tolerances are tighter than nearly all gun work. Generally in the .001 or less range.Cosmetics are critical.When you look at a reblue gun for waviness,distorted reflections...look at the surfaces of high end consumer products ,particularly clear products.
I get you mirror reflection of the cue-tip. We carefully study the mirror for distortion.
As a matter of fact,there are satellites in orbit that don't use wires or fibers for signal communication. They use light beams and mirrors. The mirrors are made of tungsten carbide. The total tolerance for flatness on those mirrors is
.0001 I know all this because I hand polished them. Customer feedback: Mine were the best they ever got.

Foredoms are good tools. I have a couple. One has the low range. I also have a big brother. Its a 1/2 hp 10,000 RPM version I use with rock hard felt wheels I cut with a hole saw and mount myself. It also drives 1 in Tampico fiber re-enforced end brushes.

Do you know what a DME profiler is? Probably don't have them at gunsmith school.
Its a cable drive hand tool,like a Fordom. Only it makes linear strokes. 0-14000 of them a minute,and 0-6mm stroke. It has a pistol grip and a variable eccentric.
That drives stones and laps.I have one,and know how to use it.
I don't own the Gesswein ultrasonic polishing tools,but I have used them.

Typically I would work from a machined ,ground,or EDM finish. We actually ,for example ,would burn a cavity to a specific EDM fin,say a 125. We would know that meant the "texture",high to low spots had a value of just over .001. Plus you have to remove about another .0005 of recast steel.To end up with the correct dimensions,we might leave .0015 to .002 to polish off.

A basic of polishing is that you begin with a uniform finish. Ground,machined,EDM,I don't care. It has peaks and valleys. We cut the peaks off without deepening the valleys.We do that by crossing the valleys.
As we reduce the peaks,we watch the valleys.The instant the valley disappears,we are done. Even polish is controlled by watching the valleys fade. That's how you hold dimension and flatness.
There is such a thing as polishing rouge. It uses rounded rocks. These are intended to burnish rather than cut.
But most polishing compunds use sharp rocks that cut. Silicon Carbide,aluminum oxide,etc. These are "cut" or "Cut and color" compounds.

And they DO remove steel.

An old saying in the trade: "Indicators don't lie,and liars don't indicate"
No,I'm not calling you a liar.

You try this. Start with a piece of flat machined or ground steel.Maybe 1 or 2 in by 3 or 4 in. Doesn't matter much. Ideally,put it on a surface plate and use a height gauge and a .0001 indicator just to see what you have. No surface plate? Use your micrometer.
Then you do your best to polish the whole thing to look like a fine,optical mirror.Not a carnival mirror,but a non-distorted,accurate mirror.
Now go back and use your indicator again,or your mic. You WILL see a measurable change.Nothing else is possible.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the info friend. And awesome write up by the way. All I was trying to get at is that by polishing the chamber the way I showed in the video will not cause any damaging effects to the chamber, again I'm not going at it for a long period of time and definitely not removing enough material to make the barrel unsafe or out of tolerences. I would never do something to a firearm to damage it intentionally.
 
Wow, this forum is amazing.
Thank you HiBC, Bill DeShivs and GorillaGunworks for taking the time. All I knew about polishing was from a mechanic's point of view (not precisely "fine polishing", really), so all this information is gold for me. :cool:

So, Bersa's chambers are known for being not that tight, so I guess I'll pass on this one. Thanks again.:)
 
GorillaGunworks said:
...I do consider myself somewhat of a expert....
Click to expand...

That's nice, but does anyone else consider you an expert? More importantly, how many recognized experts consider you an expert.

Proclaiming oneself an expert (or any number of other things) doesn't mean anything. What's meaningful is when others who have the knowledge to judge decide that someone is an expert (or any number of other things).
 
I don't get it...maybe someone can explain to me what the logic is for polishing a feed ramp when there is no malfunction. The original post seems to suggest that it is a routine and desirable procedure. Why would anyone "fix" something that is not "broken"?
 
dahermit said:
I don't get it...maybe someone can explain to me what the logic is for polishing a feed ramp when there is no malfunction. The original post seems to suggest that it is a routine and desirable procedure....
Click to expand...

Some people seem to think so, but it is not. I have and have had many completely reliable semi-automatics, including many 1911s. I've never polished or had polished a feed ramp and never have had any reason to do so. If a gun functions reliably there is no reason to polish the feed ramp.

I've heard of reliable semi-automatics turned into boat anchors by unnecessary polishing of feed ramps.
 
Good info from Bill DeShivs and HiBC, it's evident they know of what they speak. The last line that Frank Ettin wrote about reliable guns being turned into boat anchors has a lot of truth in it also. I was at a gun show displaying some of the custom guns I built when a guy steps up to the table and starts telling how the feed ramps in my guns could be improved if the feed ramps were high polished with a Dremel. Ron my friend working the table with me turns to look at me because he knew what was coming. I smiled and politely told the gentleman I thought the Dremel was an excellent tool as it alone got me and many other gunsmiths more work then any other tool made. The moral of the story is if it ain't broke don't fix it!
 
There is not a thing wrong with a shiny feed ramp and it's not going to ruin a pistol...unless a person removes a lot of metal or changes angles of the ramp in the process. Properly done it is little more than cosmetic and a smooth or shiny surface on the ramp is not the end of the firearm.
 
Old Stony said:
There is not a thing wrong with a shiny feed ramp and it's not going to ruin a pistol...unless a person removes a lot of metal or changes angles of the ramp in the process. Properly done it is little more than cosmetic and a smooth or shiny surface on the ramp is not the end of the firearm.
Click to expand...

You miss the points:

  1. There's nothing particularly right about a shiny feed ramp. The feed ramp doesn't have to be shiny for the pistol to function properly.

  2. If a pistol is reliable there is no functional benefit to polishing the feed ramp.

  3. In a pistol that is reliable polishing the feed ramp is cosmetic. And, of course, since the feed ramp is internal one needs to consider the value of having a pretty feed ramp which one can't usually see.

  4. And if one decides to polish the feed ramp of a reliable pistol he risks taken off too much metal and/or changing the angle -- turning a reliable pistol into an unreliable pistol -- for some intangible, modest cosmetic gain.

  5. "Too much metal" doesn't have to be a lot of metal, and a deleterious change of angle doesn't have to be much. It's easy to take metal off, but very hard to put it back.

  6. If that's a good trade off to you, by all means have at it. But stay away from my guns.
 
Mr Stony, I understand and accept that polishing the feed ramp is on the menu for a classic "semi-auto tune up". My Wilson Combat 1911 video "How To" course covers polishing the feed ramp. I understand the thought behind it.
I'll even agree that DONE RIGHT it may be of some benefit.
I'm saying "You are not wrong" with reservations.

Problem is everyone with a Dremel is looking for someplace on a gun to use it.
And,to a degree,for the pistol smith,polishing the ramp helps pay the electric bill.Its a service to offer.

And IMO,while a hacked in feed ramp with transverse cutter marks (or steel case gouges in an alloy frame) present a potential problem...in fact past a smooth,good machined tool finish,the step to "shiny polish" is a bit over rated.

The role of the feed ramp in a properly functioning 1911 is over rated.

We might look to the feed ramp to remedy nose diving rounds,but the root cause is better magazines,probably,or cartridge length or? but odds are the polish will be a mediocre cure.

I have seen some pretty "hack" feed ramps on factory guns. Croation Springfield mil-Spec comes to mind. It looks like someone on a line has a die grinder and a barrel of 1911 frames. The job is "Doing the feed ramp"
Problem is,off center,asymetrical,and if you do a midline section of the ramp,the profile resembles a pronounce "Alfred Hitchcock" style beer belly.
Which means the lower meplat of a hollow point runs into a near vertical wall at about the feedramps navel.

I asked a respectable 1911 TFL builder about this,and he gave me the Marvel suggested ramp angle. With a Bridgeport,I corrected the geometry,then lightly stone my good tool finish. And,I confess,I used a fiber end brush and a bit of diamond compound with my Foredom to put a soft,satin luster on the ramp.

The key is,I maintained the .030 step transition step from the ramp to the barrel throat. Its a common,classic error to Dremelize enough steel off to ruin this step. Then the bullet catches on the barrel.So people grind off barrel to "correct" it. More case is unsupported.
I know,you don't do that. Cool.

But it IS a common "1911 Dremel Syndrome" .......IIRC,smebody even made a "weld in repair feed ramp" to correct it,it was so common.

Another key bit of wit:If you don't know what you are doing,don't"
 
I am not a trained gun smith but have 4 decades of experience
I am a trained IC engine port n polish guy
I have polished a LOT of car and motor cycle parts... all metals
I have an intensive collection of polishing tools materials....including a lot of BIG $$ in stones of a lot of hardness and shapes
I can still hot rod many .049 2 stroke Glow engines to produce 1000 to 1500 RPM over stock with some of my techniques

I do know the ramp angle and length are critical
I would never change a chamber bore without the correct tooling
I do know that both the CZ-75b and Taurus PT 1911 feed ramps...under a 10 loupe showed modest machining grooves causing drag and some semi frequent failure to feed with certain ammo

Decision... send to gun smith with description of problem and sample ammo--- or try to fix by self

Fix by self over 5 years and 4500+ rounds ago

Fully agree.... do NOT do this unless 100% confident in skills and equipment... or unwilling to buy a new fire arm if you destroy yours

MY own worst case was within my comfort zone
 
Mr. Ettin.......one of us is missing some points, and I'm afraid it's not me. I did not recommend polishing feed ramps or recommend making anything shiny inside of a firearm. My statements were just to the point that a shiny surface..properly done.. is not harmful to the firearm. I agree with other statements here that the transition area into the chamber of a 1911 should not be shortened, but my statements were not of an argumentative nature. I guess my "ignorance" of firearms must be irritating to you, but you can rest assured I will not be anywhere near your firearms.
4V50....Mr. Dunlap was right in his comments about smooth vs. shiny. Other than his style of haircuts, he is very knowledgeable about many things.
 
Frank Ettin said:
That's nice, but does anyone else consider you an expert? More importantly, how many recognized experts consider you an expert.

Proclaiming oneself an expert (or any number of other things) doesn't mean anything. What's meaningful is when others who have the knowledge to judge decide that someone is an expert (or any number of other things).
Click to expand...
Sorry Friend, Im not one to play the My dick is bigger than yours game because its not my style. ive never had the need to brag and say im good or that im the best at anything because i let my work speak for itself. but i will play along since i am new to the community. Lets see people that know me in the industry that would not have any issues vouching for the quality of my work or Knowledge in gunsmithing. :rolleyes: You can talk to Ben over at Boresight Solutions, The guys over a Rebellion Firearms LLC, AWA Gunsmithing, The Gunocologist, Jeremiah over at Gunslingers, just to name a few of my good friends in the industry, or if youd like Miami-Dade Police department, Opa-Locka Police, Palm Beach Police, Hialeah Police & Swat, Broward's Sherif Dept & Swat, A few ATF agents that were clients of mine, Just to name some of my old clientele base. so yes i feel like i have a bit of experience under my belt sir i dont generally talk out of my ass nor do i believ i know it all as none of us really do and we learn new things everyday and thats what makes us better.
 
dahermit said:
I don't get it...maybe someone can explain to me what the logic is for polishing a feed ramp when there is no malfunction. The original post seems to suggest that it is a routine and desirable procedure. Why would anyone "fix" something that is not "broken"?
Click to expand...
the reason behind polishing a feed ramp is to prevent malfunctions like feeding issues due to a rough feed ramp where the ammunition can sometimes get stuck on the feed ramp on its way up to the chamber in some cases. although not very common it does happen and this just helps prevent it. its like going to a doctor for a annual check up your not sick or have any issues but you do it to prevent any issues with yourself. again its a personal choice.
 
4V50 Gary said:
I was taught that smooth was more important than shiny. My instructor was Bob Dunlap at Susanville, CA.
Click to expand...
one of the best Gunsmiths in the industry in my opinion. He has the knowledge that many gunsmiths wish to have and he is a advisor for many manufactures. i met him a few times. awesome person.
 
Hunter Customs said:
Good info from Bill DeShivs and HiBC, it's evident they know of what they speak. The last line that Frank Ettin wrote about reliable guns being turned into boat anchors has a lot of truth in it also. I was at a gun show displaying some of the custom guns I built when a guy steps up to the table and starts telling how the feed ramps in my guns could be improved if the feed ramps were high polished with a Dremel. Ron my friend working the table with me turns to look at me because he knew what was coming. I smiled and politely told the gentleman I thought the Dremel was an excellent tool as it alone got me and many other gunsmiths more work then any other tool made. The moral of the story is if it ain't broke don't fix it!
Click to expand...
I agree with you i had various run away guns come into my shop from both people trying to perform the 25 cent trigger job on their guns at home based off crap they say on youtube and i have had guns come from other gunsmiths that have had sear engagement issues because they decided it would be a great idea to polish the sear faces with a dremel rounding the darn thing over. we had a joke for a while that they should make people buying dremels fill out a 4473 lolz
 
GorillaGunworks said:
Sorry Friend, Im not one to play the My dick is bigger than yours game because its not my style.....
Click to expand...

It was actually a rhetorical question since really your answer wouldn't mean much. We're not in a position to check your references or verify your credentials. And a number of well known and regarded members here have taken issue, citing their technical bases, with a number of things you've posted.

The real point is that someone calling himself an expert (which apparently is your style) is a false note -- it just doesn't ring true. It's not anyone's place to call himself an expert, or a nice guy, or honest, or handsome, etc. Those sorts of assessment are for others to make.
 
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