How Times Have Changed

[Camp David]

Shall I go on or do some of you still think that everything about the "good ole days" was better?

You can go on if you wish, but in each of the cases you mention and distort the circumstances the "good old days" wins out hands down...

A combination of political correctness, secular progressivism, and an absolute lack of cajones from the majority has moved our society to a culture in which most of us are embarrased to be a part... Those contributing to the decline mistake our Constitution to a welcome mat of freeocracy. They have not yet learned the word responsibility and they dump on our society with progressive intent.

I recall in the fall my history professor in junior year of high school specifically directed me to bring my Model 12 Winchester to school and take it apart so it would fit in my locker, as the evenings spent in a duck blind after school with him while we awaited blacks and woodies to alight on the decoys might be something which schools today could not take part. How sad.

 

[Doug.38PR]

Man o man Redworm, how you love to relive the 1960s. Tell me, did you wear beeds? Have long hair? Sing songs about the end of the world? Run through the fields mindlessly (after some pot) with hippie friends before rushing off to the airport to spit on men returning from the harsh jungles of vietnam and call them baby killer? What a hero! Or did you just leave home with a girlfriend you shacked up with driving an VW van with "establishment sucks" painted on the side on a convoy to Mississippi with your college professor in the lead (all the way from California) just to chant on the steps of Jackson how eeeeeevil "everyone" in the state is because you read of some black man who was beaten and killed by some KKKers or saw a film reel of waterhoses hitting a mob of black folks somewhere in Alabama. Ow that's just so radical man, dude!!! And now you teach college pompously bragging to your students every day about your old glory days of taking up every leftist crusade from the 60s to date and how eeeevil everything was back then until you, the so-called Civil Rights movement, women's liber movement and Earth Day movement and all the other movements came along to save the world and stamp out all eeeeevil. Whew, where's Glenn Meyer, about time he chimmed in on this thread. You and he must be the best of friends

Alright, on a more serious note: All of the above are generalizations, they are instantly what came to my mind. You're probably not any of those things, or at least not all of them.

I'm not for beating blacks, children, women ,etc. I'm not for smoking cigarettes :barf: I'm not for dirty air and water.

But, for all those "evils", whether right or wrong, you and your kind of thinking sought to stamp out back then merely spread evil and lead to bigger evils we face today.

 

[DonR101395]

Scenario: Black family moves into upper middle class Anytown, USA
1956: Black family is insulted and berated, denied service at local establishments. Children are hounded in school, made to drink in seperate water fountains, quite possibly assaulted.
2006: Black family gets to live free, safe and secure like the whites.

There are still many places in the U.S. where this still happens. The signs have come down, but the attitude is still there. When I moved to North Florida in 92 the local paper had a KKK meeting in the social calender section.

Scenario: Young journalist writes an editorial wondering if capitalism is fair.
1956: Journalist is hounded by the authorities for being a communist, neighbors destroy his car but commies don't get help from the police.
2006: Freedom of speech lives on

Similar things still happen. Not necessarily with a communist twist, but with a terrorist twist.

Scenario: Man gets drunk and gives his wife two black eyes and three broken ribs
1956: He pretends to apologize, claims he loves her and tells her to make him a sandwich. Man's good buddy the sheriff makes sure no one in the town speaks of the screaming and sounds of glass breaking coming from the home.
2006: Woman realizes she is not property of any man, calls the authorities and scumbag is sent to prison.

If it didn't still happen we couldn't have women claiming self defense etc when the kill the scumbag then going on national tv to make their statement. I've also personally seen the local Sheriff not do anything, because he didn't "see" a crime committed. No, it wasn't domestic violence, but it was his cousin involved in poaching, shooting at my house, and harassing my dog.

Scenario: Tom is homosexual.
1956: Assaulted numerous times by homophobic rednecks. Never helped by the authorities. Instead a neighbor sees him buying a newspaper from the local paper boy, accuses him of being a sexual predator and the authorities look the other way when his house is lit on fire by the KKK.
2006: Tom lives a safe and secure life in San Francisco.

So you're saying in these better times gays should still be relegated to living in their own communities where they are predominately with "their kind"?

Scenario: Billy is disallusioned with America, notices people cheering when a Chinese man burns a flag in protest so he does the same.
1956: Treated like a criminal.
2006: Freedom of speech alive and well.

Too bad Billy didn't see a Chinese man blow himself up out in a field.

Scenario: More evidence is discovered and analyzed regarding the origins of life.
1956: Religious zealots get up in arms, demand that an invisible man in the sky makes more sense than being related to monkeys. Overall intelligence of the country is once again held back.
2006: Students learn the difference between science and dogma.

That pesky separation of church and state thing gets in the way of giving both sides equal time. Both teachings are theory and conjecture. Personally don't feel either should be taught, but I'm probably a gun toting redneck from MI for thinking that way. BTW I can't stand watching a car driving in a circle for 500 miles.

Scenario: Mary wants to leave her crummy little town and do something with her life.
1956: Mary's father beats her for thinking she can be as smart as a man, Mary's mother tells her that all women just need to find a good man to marry and not worry about college. Mary ends up barefoot and pregnant hating her life.
2006: Mary leaves behind her backwards community, gets an MBA and starts her own company making more in a year than her parents did their entire lives. Years later she has the time and money to raise a family without stress.

That's interesting that in 1956 there were no educated women. I'll agree that it's easier for women to progress in these times, but they are still not equal, they are just closer to being equal. Once again I'm sure that makes me an uneducated hick, but I can live with that.
My own daughter makes more money after two years in the Banking industry than I do after 20 years in the military. But it was our values and her hard work that got her there. She has graduated college with no student loans, no grants, no scholarships and she worked the entire way through college. I paid tuition she paid for books. She understands the meaning of hard work and the value of a dollar. I hope she makes as much in a year as I've made in my lifetime, but it will not be without stress. More money does not equal no stress. More money equals more possessions and more money. It can ease stressful situations, but it does not eliminate stress.

 

[Redworm]

Your joking right.? Women in truth have less respect now then they once did, divorce at an all time high, children without fathers, yeah, we've matured in the twilight world.

Less respect? Less respect than being treated as property? Than being told that they're only good for being wifes and homemakers? Less respect than being told the only contribution you can make to the business world is as a secretary or switchboard operator? Less respect than being told your womb is property of the government?

Divorce is at an all time high and people complain about gays wanting to marry because it destroys the "sanctity". Yet no conservative is clamoring to outlaw divorce.

Men and women are equally responsible for the things you mentioned but these days women have the choice to become something other than a subjugated wife. These days women are no longer told that they are nothing without a man.

The only area we improved is in technology and we use that to spy on citizens, morals and standards both in corporations and government continues to the bottom, yeah, we've evolved.

We also use that technology to extend the human lifespan. We also use that technology to learn about the world around us. We also use that technology to communicate.

I certainly believe we've evolved. There's still a long way to go but at least people of all races, religions, genders and ideas are treated equal to the WASPs.

 

[Redworm]

You can go on if you wish, but in each of the cases you mention and distort the circumstances the "good old days" wins out hands down...

A combination of political correctness, secular progressivism, and an absolute lack of cajones from the majority has moved our society to a culture in which most of us are embarrased to be a part... Those contributing to the decline mistake our Constitution to a welcome mat of freeocracy. They have not yet learned the word responsibility and they dump on our society with progressive intent.

I recall in the fall my history professor in junior year of high school specifically directed me to bring my Model 12 Winchester to school and take it apart so it would fit in my locker, as the evenings spent in a duck blind after school with him while we awaited blacks and woodies to alight on the decoys might be something which schools today could not take part. How sad.

Oh because the cases in the first post were not distorted?

I'm not fan of political correctness but what's wrong with secularism? Ending slavery was pretty progressive and liberal. Allowing women to vote was pretty progressive and liberal. Taking religion out of science class was pretty progressive and liberal. Allowing blacks to attend the same schools as whites was pretty progressive and liberal. Yeah, those are really dumps on the Constitution.

I agree on your last paragraph, it's sad that schools cannot take part in such things today but that doesn't change the fact that overall the "good ole days" was good for white men and not so much for the rest until "progressive liberals" paved the way for equality.

 

[Redworm]

Man o man Redworm, how you love to relive the 1960s. Tell me, did you wear beeds? Have long hair? Sing songs about the end of the world? Run through the fields mindlessly (after some pot) with hippie friends before rushing off to the airport to spit on men returning from the harsh jungles of vietnam and call them baby killer? What a hero! Or did you just leave home with a girlfriend you shacked up with driving an VW van with "establishment sucks" painted on the side on a convoy to Mississippi with your college professor in the lead (all the way from California) just to chant on the steps of Jackson how eeeeeevil "everyone" in the state is because you read of some black man who was beaten and killed by some KKKers or saw a film reel of waterhoses hitting a mob of black folks somewhere in Alabama. Ow that's just so radical man, dude!!! And now you teach college pompously bragging to your students every day about your old glory days of taking up every leftist crusade from the 60s to date and how eeeevil everything was back then until you, the so-called Civil Rights movement, women's liber movement and Earth Day movement and all the other movements came along to save the world and stamp out all eeeeevil. Whew, where's Glenn Meyer, about time he chimmed in on this thread. You and he must be the best of friends

I'm 23. What's wrong with beads and long hair? Nothing wrong with music and pot but plenty wrong with killing villages of civilians because they might be harboring VCs. I would never spit on a veteran, however.

But yeah, oppression of blacks and women are pretty evil in my opinion. Morality is pretty subjective, however.

Alright, on a more serious note: All of the above are generalizations, they are instantly what came to my mind. You're probably not any of those things, or at least not all of them.

I'm not for beating blacks, children, women ,etc. I'm not for smoking cigarettes I'm not for dirty air and water.

But, for all those "evils", whether right or wrong, you and your kind of thinking sought to stamp out back then merely spread evil and lead to bigger evils we face today.

I disagree. You may not be for those things but many back then were, some still are. The same way that some of those hippies were spitting on veterans. They were wrong as were the racists and child abusers. That doesn't mean that everything about the "good ole days" was better. I do agree that there are many evils today but at least today most people are on a level playing field.

 

[Redworm]

There are still many places in the U.S. where this still happens. The signs have come down, but the attitude is still there. When I moved to North Florida in 92 the local paper had a KKK meeting in the social calender section.

They have the right to voice their opinions but back then they would have been able to assault black families without repercussion.

Similar things still happen. Not necessarily with a communist twist, but with a terrorist twist.

Agreed, and it's still wrong. Hating a communist for his ideas is as abhorrent as hating a Muslim for his. And our friendly neighborhood government is still trying to scare us. Republicans want to scare us with terrorism, Democrats want to scare us with global warming.

But at least people can publish articles on these subjects and not worry about being jailed for it.

If it didn't still happen we couldn't have women claiming self defense etc when the kill the scumbag then going on national tv to make their statement. I've also personally seen the local Sheriff not do anything, because he didn't "see" a crime committed. No, it wasn't domestic violence, but it was his cousin involved in poaching, shooting at my house, and harassing my dog.

Oh it still happens, my point is that now women are actually able to claim self defense or request police assistance instead of being told to keep her trap shut and that she deserved it for not having a warm meal on the table when her husband got home.

So you're saying in these better times gays should still be relegated to living in their own communities where they are predominately with "their kind"?

The mention of San Francisco was a joke. My point is that in these "better times" gays are able to live where they want without as much fear of being assaulted for their preference. These days they have protections, these days they have a voice, these days the homophobes are the criminals. Back in the "good ole days" they would just be pansies that deserved to get beaten for their sins.

Too bad Billy didn't see a Chinese man blow himself up out in a field.

What does that have to do with Billy being allowed to express his views by safely setting fire to something he owns?

That pesky separation of church and state thing gets in the way of giving both sides equal time. Both teachings are theory and conjecture. Personally don't feel either should be taught, but I'm probably a gun toting redneck from MI for thinking that way. BTW I can't stand watching a car driving in a circle for 500 miles.

That because one of them does not deserve equal time. Only one of them is a theory, the other is faith. Personally I feel that science should be taught in science class and religion should be taught in church or at home.

It's ok, I'm a gun toting redneck from Atlanta and while I don't really follow NASCAR I'd much rather see a bunch of rednecks turning left with the possibility of a cool crash than watch Mikey Schumacher lead yet another mirror image of every F1 race for the past six years.

That's interesting that in 1956 there were no educated women. I'll agree that it's easier for women to progress in these times, but they are still not equal, they are just closer to being equal. Once again I'm sure that makes me an uneducated hick, but I can live with that.
My own daughter makes more money after two years in the Banking industry than I do after 20 years in the military. But it was our values and her hard work that got her there. She has graduated college with no student loans, no grants, no scholarships and she worked the entire way through college. I paid tuition she paid for books. She understands the meaning of hard work and the value of a dollar. I hope she makes as much in a year as I've made in my lifetime, but it will not be without stress. More money does not equal no stress. More money equals more possessions and more money. It can ease stressful situations, but it does not eliminate stress.

Oh there were educated women. Far fewer, though. Far fewer because they were told they weren't smart enough or should only concern themselves with making babies. They are most certainly equal, they're not just completely considered as such.

Good for your daughter and good for you for instilling hard working values. You should be proud and honored. These days more men are like you and more women are like your daughter but my point remains that it was not the case in the "good ole days".

 

[Camp David]

...that doesn't change the fact that overall the "good ole days" was good for white men and not so much for the rest until "progressive liberals" paved the way for equality.

It was the Republican Party of conservatives that issued the Emacipation Proclaimation to slaves and set them free... Be careful with what you credit ""progressive liberals" for...

You can, however, credit the "progressive liberals" with totally eliminating Christmas Choral Concerts in public schools and nativity scenes in public squares... I know how offensive and threatening they were to the American social fabric!

 

[invention_45]

These days they have protections, these days they have a voice,

and these days they have guns.

 

[DonR101395]

I think I understand the points you're trying to make Red, but I think the main point I'm making is eluding you. The values I live by were given to me by my father, he got them from his father. I've passed them to my daughter. My values aren't different from those of the 50's and 60's they are updated but the core is still the same. My dad was a drunkard, but he made sure I wasn't and that my adult life was better than his. In return, my daughter knows my faults and I have ensured her adult life will be better than mine. Where I grew up in MI there are still people (many people) who believe women belong barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. That doesn't mean they all believe it. Just like in the 50's and 60's not everyone believed in segregation, gay bashing and wife beating. I would be willing to bet that the families who grew up with those values in the 50's and 60's still have those values today and have passed them to their kids and grandkids. They've just updated them by hiding them from the general public.

 

[mthalo]

Divorce is at an all time high and people complain about gays wanting to marry because it destroys the "sanctity". Yet no conservative is clamoring to outlaw divorce.

Outlawing divorce would prevent "conservatives" from being able to divorce when their wives do something unacceptable without any regard to their husband's feelings.
For example, when Newt Gingrich's wife got cancer.

 

[mthalo]

I read some of these posts, and begin to question the why there isn't some form of IQ test required to purchase a gun.
If you're offended, well, it's probably not your post.



Yes, things have changed for the worse, Americans used to value education more.
Yes, a college education is a good thing.

 

[invention_45]

Congratulations on your professorship at age 23, Redworm

 

[Ausserordeutlich]

Congratulations on reaching 23, Redworm. Good luck on reaching 33.

 

[Redworm]

It was the Republican Party of conservatives that issued the Emacipation Proclaimation to slaves and set them free... Be careful with what you credit ""progressive liberals" for...

wait...freeing slaves was a conservative idea? what definitions of "conservative" and "liberal" are we using??

You can, however, credit the "progressive liberals" with totally eliminating Christmas Choral Concerts in public schools and nativity scenes in public squares... I know how offensive and threatening they were to the American social fabric!

Sure, I'll give them full credit for that. Taxpayers should not be paying for religious ceremony. If you want to have nativity scenes in the public square then you damn well better accept muslim, jewish, pagan, wiccan, hindu, buddhist and rastafarian symbols in the public square.

 

[Redworm]

I think I understand the points you're trying to make Red, but I think the main point I'm making is eluding you. The values I live by were given to me by my father, he got them from his father. I've passed them to my daughter. My values aren't different from those of the 50's and 60's they are updated but the core is still the same. My dad was a drunkard, but he made sure I wasn't and that my adult life was better than his. In return, my daughter knows my faults and I have ensured her adult life will be better than mine. Where I grew up in MI there are still people (many people) who believe women belong barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. That doesn't mean they all believe it. Just like in the 50's and 60's not everyone believed in segregation, gay bashing and wife beating. I would be willing to bet that the families who grew up with those values in the 50's and 60's still have those values today and have passed them to their kids and grandkids. They've just updated them by hiding them from the general public.

You're right, back then not everyone believed those things. But the overwhelming majority did otherwise segregation would not have been enforced by the government. The families that grew up in the 50s and 60s passed those along to their children because society as a whole evolved. Without external forces changing the direction of the nation's overall moral compass then many of those values would not have been updated, as you put it.

Core values are well and good but it's those updates that have made our society better. Some of those updates have made things worse but overall people are far closer to reaching equality than ever before.

 

[Redworm]

Congratulations on reaching 23, Redworm. Good luck on reaching 33.

gracias

 

[DonR101395]

Sure, I'll give them full credit for that. Taxpayers should not be paying for religious ceremony. If you want to have nativity scenes in the public square then you damn well better accept muslim, jewish, pagan, wiccan, hindu, buddhist and rastafarian symbols in the public square.

If we had a National Holiday based on any of those religions I would be ok with it. I'm not aware of any National Holidays that fit the bill? Anyone? I'm only aware of 13 National Holidays and none of them are in recognition of any of the above stated religions.

 

[Redworm]

If we had a National Holiday based on any of those religions I would be ok with it. I'm not aware of any National Holidays that fit the bill? Anyone? I'm only aware of 13 National Holidays and none of them are in recognition of any of the above stated religions.

Why should Christians get a national holiday in the first place? Doesn't a declaration of a national holiday require an act of Congress? Isn't there some blurb somewhere about Congress making no laws respecting the establishment of any one religion?

I view christmas as a secular holiday. Most of the traditions are pagan in origin, it's celebrated six months too late to be accurate to christians beliefs anyways and most people just see it as a commercialized gift giving day. Fine with me. Christmas trees, lights, Santa Claus; all secular.

Nativity scenes? Christian. Either accept that all those other religions deserve national holidays as well or accept that Christmas does not belong to christians and thus purely christian ideals cannot be supported with taxpayer funds in the public square. Can't have it both ways.

 

[BillCA]

These days we have organizations like the ACLU keeping the bible out of science class, keeping Republicans out of a girl's womb, keeping Republicans out of my bedroom, making sure that women realize men are not better than them and they don't have to subjugate themselves to living worthless lives they don't want.

Surrrrre... we have the American Communist Legal Union to make life in our democratic republic good & wonderful. :barf: Check your history. The ACLU was founded by a dyed in the wool communist for the legal defense of communists. The ACLU steadfastly refuses to offer legal defense resources for anyone defending themselves against blatantly unconstitutional 2A issues or for anyone charged with a crime out of a self-defense shooting -- unless it was a minority shooting a white or a woman shooting her husband. Nor will they offer legal resources if you are Christian and wish to wear a cross to school (but somehow wearing a headscarf and carrying a Koran everywhere must be accommodated. )

Speaking of women ..and respect thereof -- watch an older movie sometime. When was the last time you saw anyone stand up when a woman entered the room or when she went to be seated at a table? When was the last time you saw a man opening the car door for a woman? Or offering his hand to her to get in or out of a car?

...that doesn't change the fact that overall the "good ole days" was good for white men and not so much for the rest until "progressive liberals" paved the way for equality.

It was the Republican Party of conservatives that issued the Emacipation Proclaimation to slaves and set them free... Be careful with what you credit ""progressive liberals" for...

It was also the Republican Party that was responsible for passing the Civil Rights act in the 60's, while the Southern Democrats tried to block its passage.

In a bygone era, foul language was barely tolerated in public company and certainly not in the presence of a ladies or children. Today, kids in pre-school can be found dropping the "F-word" and swearing like a sailor.

I'd also like to remind some people that "Freedom of speech" does not equate to "freedom from repercussions" of that speech. If you advocate some point of view with your free speech you should first contemplate how your audience is likely to react. You have the right, like Rosie O'Donnell to say that all gun owners should be rounded up and summarily jailed. I'll even defend your right to say it, but if you insist on saying it in my presence, I'll box your ears.

In regards to firearms - in today's society it seems that the mere presence of something indicative of firearms -- i.e. a gun periodical -- is sometimes enough to get you in trouble (gun magazines in the workplace are the same as "pornography" according to one corporation I know of). Discussing firearms around the wrong people can get you in trouble -- "creating an uncomfortable or threatening atmosphere".

Litigation over firearms has reached an all-time high of stupidity. A friend wanted to start his own small business (consulting). His original employee guide was reviewed by his business lawyer who almost had a stroke when he reached the policy that said any person holding a CCW permit was permitted to carry while working. The lawyer told him he could not get insurance if he had that policy ...nor would the lawyer represent him if he left it in the handbook! (He changed lawyers and found an insurance company himself).

Additional stupidity abounds in firearms lawsuits. The idea of a manufacturer being responsible for the misuse of their product through the concatenation of wholesaler-to-retailer-to-user sales is prima facia absurd. We might as well prosecute Ford and GM for promoting reckless driving through support of auto races. Likewise, we should hold movie companies, producers and directors responsible for reckless driving shown in moves (hey - as well as reckless use of firearms! Why not?)

Here's two more differences between the generations;
Twelve year old Tommy runs a can opener down the side of Mr. Smith's car parked on the street and Mr. Smith catches him in the act.

1956: Mr. Smith takes Tommy home to his parents and tells them what happened. Tommy's parents apologize and tell Mr. Smith they will pay for repairs to his car and certainly discipline Tommy for his vandalism.

2006: Mr. Smith grabs Tommy's arm and Tommy fights, screams and kicks. When he gets Tommy to his house, the parents are aghast that their child has been "abused" by being "manhandled" by a stranger. They believe their child when he says Mr. Smith had the can-opener, not him. They call police and claim child abuse, terroristic threats and extortion. Mr. Smith is arrested and spends $16,000 to get the charges dropped. Meanwhile, the scratches in his Lexus have rusted.

Seven year old Alex and nine year old Eric are outside a small toy-store when Eric convinces younger Alex to shoplift a 10-cent balsa wood glider toy. Alex gets caught and confesses the scheme. Shop owner calls police.

1956: Police officer takes the kids to their respective parents and explains what happened. Parents offer apologies and assurances of discipline. They ground the child for a week after making sure he apologizes to the shop owner.

2006: Police officer descretion removed. Alex and Eric are handcuffed, searched and taken to the police station and juvenille hall. Parents are called downtown to get their kids, given an appointment to see an administrative judge in three weeks. Judge requires both parents present which means a loss of income for one or more for the day.