How much concrete to stop bullets?

FUD,
What are you worried about? You have that security gate to protect you!
I did see a home improvement show recently where a company was making sheets of fiberglass for use in homes where high winds would be a problem. They were expensive, of course, but not grossly so to install a safe room in the house. You may want to search the internet for the supplier. They had ratings from 9mm to .357 magnum , up to .300 Winchester.
Luck

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Those who use arms well cultivate the Way and keep the rules.Thus they can govern in such a way as to prevail over the corrupt- Sun Tzu, The Art of War
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Apple a Day: ...You have that security gate to protect you ...[/quote]That was funny, but like I said, I'm getting it for protection against hurricanes. I just moved down to southern Florida last year and was here for only about a month when hurricane Floyd starting making it's way directly toward us. Watching the storm on TV, it was on a course directly toward where we were living. It didn't make us feel any better when the News kept saying that Hurricane Andrew (from a few years back that caused all of that massive damage) was a cat.4 storm while Floyd was three times the size of Andrew AND a cat.5 storm. Fortunately, it made a sharp turn during the final 12 hours and Florida was spared. Talk about being scarred. Give me a blizzard anytime.


[This message has been edited by FUD (edited August 04, 2000).]
 
First, I need to say, I am not TxS. I don't feel like registering just to reply to this one topic.

I could make a more specific recommendation if I knew more about your specific situation. For upgrading an existing structure for bullet resistance there are much easier/cheaper products than Kevlar or Concrete.

Armortex (800-880-8306) makes sheets of bullet resistant fiberglass. You handle it just like plywood (cuts with a skill saw, drills with a hand drill, etc). It's rated up to 7.62 150 Gr. FMJ. More resistance could probably be achieved with more layers. You can mount the stuff on your studs, and put gyp. bd. ("dry wall") right over it (or under your floor), and nobody even has a clue your walls and/or floors are bullet resistant.

Another good point of this product is that it absorbs the bullets energy, rather than causing it to ricochet around the room.

In my job we've built the stuff into podiums, judges benches, and courtroom & chamber walls.

If anybody is serious about building a new house with security and storm resistant properties, maybe we should chat. My ICQ number is 10754648
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FUD:
build3.gif

The room is 8' wide by 6' deep by 7' 11" high. The front wall is 6" thick, the back wall is 6" thick, and the roof is 6" thick at the coffer in the ceiling. It is entirely made of super-strong 6500 PSI concrete and weighs 7.5 tons! The steel door alone weighs over 300 pounds.
Share what you know, learn what you don't -- FUD
fud-nra.gif
[/quote]
Hey Fud, I thought you lived in a bigger house than that. Where is your study located?
 
Well, I dropped by the Armortex webpage, http://www.Armortex.com
and it was interesting; Great product there, especially if you don't want it to be very obvious that you've made a room bullet resistant. But how much does it cost?

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Sic semper tyrannis!
 
ED From PA, The study is on the first floor to the left of the front door as you walk in ...
njhome.jpg


[This message has been edited by FUD (edited August 07, 2000).]
 
Monolithic Domes claims to be the first air form/urethane foam/shotcrete builders.
http://www.monolithicdome.com

I saw them featured in American Survival Guide several years ago, according to that article, a bullet-proof home is one of their options. Article showed them firing a .30-06 at one of their domes at a range of only several feet.

They also specially built a home in Florida, to handle hurricanes. It can be found here:
http://www.monolithicdome.com/gallery/homes/eye/index.html

Hope that helps.

LawDog
 
I've thought about the problem and I think you'd get a lot more protection from bullets if you put some sheet-metal over the concrete. Could probably get away with 2 inches.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FUD:
ED From PA, The study is on the first floor to the left of the front door as you walk in ...
njhome.jpg


[This message has been edited by FUD (edited August 04, 2000).][/quote]
FUD: I see your on the right track...not relying on just small arms anymore :D :D :D
 
Shooting at anything at a few feet is not going to show how well it resists bullets. The darn things have not stablized in a few feet.

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Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"
 
Concrete is not the answer....

There are much better ways to stop a bullet. The trick to ballistic protection is to create resistant differentials. What is the hardest substance on earth? Diamonds? nope, Silicon Carbide(some forms are quite a bit harder then diamond). Silicon carbide was actually first used by a very smart helicopter pilot in Vietnam, who stuck bags of it on the floor underneath him. The bags were so successful that soon pilots were getting the stuff as much as they could. While silicon carbide is super hard, it is also quite brittle, and normally a bullet would just shatter a block of it. The trick? Make an alloy of sorts. To get the best qualities of various metals, they are welded together, but in the case of silicon carbide, it will not weld together with metals, so you have to layer it. take silicon carbide and mix it with clay slip, let it dry into tiles of about 8x8"(2 inch thick) and then fire them to high fire, and be sure and put a light glaze of iron oxide on the outside of it. Then, sandwich that between two plates of 16 gauge steel, and weld he outer edges to each other by folding them over the edge of the tiles so they touch in the middle. Then, to create the resistant differential in the binding materials, and to control oxidation, put 26 gauge stainless around the outside of the whole thing and weld it at the sides too. Further you can wrap it in Kevlar or Spectra Shield, as well as fiberglass, or other polymers for further containment and spall protection. I have experimented with this kind of defense, and it will stop a .50 bmg round(once only usually, subsequent shots aren't quite stopped, but slowed a lot). This does create a heavy plate, but it is extremely strong. Layering enough of these you could easily stop modern anti-tank rounds(though they must be overlapped properly). For extra effect, line the inside with similar sheets, but instead of silicon carbide, fill them with lead, that will add extra mass to the barrier, but the EPA finds out and you're probably in trouble...

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I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist

The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me
 
Hey, why do all that.
Build a different home, only model it after the way a lot of Germans make their houses.
If I recall, I watched several homes built of concrete, with brick or stone outer cover. The finished product had to be near 8"-10" of stone material. Then factor in the finished interior of course.
The windows have steel shutters that cover them at night, or whatever.
I remember watching this, and thinking that they're building them for the next WW. And that was in '75-'76.


[This message has been edited by Donny (edited August 05, 2000).]
 
100 yard penetraton of:

7.62 Ball 5 round burst 9.5" of concrete.
30-06 AP 1 shot 7" of concrete.

Jim V for what its worth I have shot a 1" plate of steel from 6 feet with 06 ap and it went right on through and stuck into a log on other side the core was tack sharp.
 
If your facing burst fire you have lots of problems. Even 223 will eat away at concrete in a hurry if you have 2 or more 16's concentrating on the same spot.

And shotguns work well on softer materials. Still waiting to see a movie or book were someone uses a full auto weapon or shotgun to make a loophole in a hurry.
 
FYI, a 120mm HVFSDS (high velocity fin stabilized discarding sabot) round will penetrate 1 to 1,9 metres of armor grade steel.
In the heyday of fortified cities, the most advanced designs were "kasematten"; dual walls separated by 6' empty space, used as storage during peacetime and filled with rubble in the case of war. Cannon balls penetrating the outer wall dissipated their energy in the rubble, pieces of which were realtively free to move.

Applying this principle wih modern materials would give two maybe 4" steel reinforced concrete walls, the maybe 6" space between them loosely filled with gravel approximately matching the weight of the expected bullets. This creates an essentially self-repairing layer.

You might like to consider placing steel plates (or corner beams with edge facing outwards) angled to deflect bullets into a longer path inside the gravel filling, maybe like upward (viewed from outside) sloping half filled overlapping shelves.

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If the priority of the archive over witnes accounts is given up, history ceases to be a science and becomes an art.

http://www.ety.com/tell/why.html
 
Silicon Carbide, and angled steel plate, and this, and that; Look, the guy isn't Bill Gates!

I would say that that those ballistic fiberglass panels would probably be great for a small safe room in an ordinary home, and if you want the whole place to be bullet proof, go for concrete and dirt. Dirt's cheap, you know. And you don't have to tell anyone that you stuck your home underground because you didn't want to make it easy for the feds to raid, or whatever. Let them think that you did it to save on the heating and cooling bills.

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Sic semper tyrannis!
 
But silicon carbide is fairly cheap to get if you know any machinists. Chops saw blades that get too small to cut with anymore? Save em up. Grind stones that get too small, save those too. Aluminum oxide can be mixed in with it as well, it doesn't have to be just silicon carbide, even if that is a lot harder material. To get enough though you'd probably have to buy some, and it is somewhat expensive, but I'm talking about mixing it with clay slip to form tiles, so you don't need the finished tile's full mass worth of silicon carbide, just enough to add consistancy, weight and strength to it. The material differences in the finished tiles will create a ballistically difficult environment. The tiles alone could stop most bullets, but it is the steel that forces them to stay intact rather than shattering. layered in the manner I described above makes an amazing defense, and will render a small area of your home invincible to just about any thug on earth. If you have a home defense plan where your family moves to safety while you, and possibly the misses as well, fight off the badguys, then having a small section built of this stuff is a nice plan. If you can't get silicon carbide, you can just use normal earthenware clay, it is extremely good on it's own anyway, though the silicon carbide gives it a huge boost in extreme ballistic defense(.50 bmg, tank rounds, etc, lol).

Such plates will take burst fire form a .223 and hardly be damaged. They can do in 3 1/2" what 10-15 inches of concrete cannot, which is stop repeated strikes and stop large calibur ammo hits.

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I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist

The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me
 
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