how many times has L.E. saved you from a deadly encounter?

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He had attacked you... and followed you inside you residence... Did I get that right? Not meaning to sound bravado but I am pretty sure at that point I would have released the hounds into his chest. Perhaps a whole mag full.

Why was he after you? Who was this guy?
See - these are question I would have asked while he was quivering and bleeding on my carpet.
:mad:
 
Tamara, I'm glad to hear everything worked out alright with you. What a great job.

And, you know, that incident was never recorded by any statistician. Just another defensive gun use that the anti-self defense gun bigots will never recognize.

Regards from AZ
 
Chris and Tamara: if you don't mind, your stories could be good posts on other forums where anti's hang out. Since I don't have the time or stomach to frequent such places, perhaps someone else here who does could post your stories.


Dick
 
George--I agree if she'd done it before he stopped and fell. But if someone had proven that he'd been falling backward or even was near or on the ground when she shot him, wouldn't she be in a world of hurt?
I'm pretty sure that would be iffy at best in Illinois.

Now, if she'd gotten off a quick couple of shots as he charged, fine. But this way she never had to deal with killing him. I hear that's even worse than I think.
 
This all happened in about maybe the space of 10 seconds, from car exit to perp fleeing. 15 feet from car to stairs, four concrete steps, my apartment door immediately inside security door on right (against exterior wall), two or three steps into living room and turn with drawn gun. His proximity was such that I firmly believe if the slamming door had not slowed him by a half step, he may have been inside my muzzle arc as I turned (and things might not have had such a favorable outcome). Certain parts of this are amazingly detailed and drawn out, others are gone. No audio track after his initial scream from OC except for thump from door and thump from his fall. I distinctly remember commencing to pull the trigger just as his arms windmilled and he fell backwards with no more than a foot between the pistol and his chest, and for a moment I thought I'd shot him until he started scrambling backwards. When he did that, I for some reason (no conscious decision that I remember) removed my finger from the trigger and tried to tell him to stop where he was. I have no doubt that if he had stood up or moved towards me in any way I would have shot him, but for whatever reason I couldn't do it to a guy scrabbling desperatley backwards on his butt and then diving/rolling sideways out the door. To this day I am thankful I didn't have to kill him, but sometimes lose sleep wondering if other, later victims may not have been as lucky.

I'm sorry for the stream of consciousness type stuff. I'm still not real coherent on this topic.

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"..but never ever Fear. Fear is for the enemy. Fear and Bullets."
10mm: It's not the size of the Dawg in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!

[This message has been edited by Tamara (edited May 01, 2000).]
 
I have used my gun to save myself three times now.
The Police have never saved me.
They have come taken reports though ;)
I got to watch my friend get rammed off the road and beaten severely with a baseball bat. Did the cops help? Of course not, they could not get there in the one minute it took place. I fully respect and adore cops, but they can only get there so fast. First you've got to get to the phone and communicate your problem and location to them, then the dispatcher puts out the call and then when possible they come your way as fast as possible. All that takes time....time that you don't have.


Police only stop 5% of violent crimes in progress. That means that YOU get to deal with the other 95%. That is a fact, and some people need to deal with it (people not on this forum).



Tamara:


I am surprised you grabbed your OC first. That was restraint on your part. I am also surprised you didn't shoot him.
You did great.

You said in your story:

"Hit my (thank God, unlocked) apartment door with a shooulder on the run"

But, my question is: did your roomate leave her front door unlocked during this whole incident of a prowler being outside her apartment scaring her? Please tell me I misunderstood!

[This message has been edited by Red Bull (edited May 02, 2000).]
 
As an LE officer, I find this to be a very interesting thread. I have never really pondered this point.

I have pulled victims "from the clutches" a few times but the incident reports and "clean ups" FAR outnumber the "saves". In addition, most saves are questionable as to whether or not they were indeed life threatening anyway. I mean, if the Sack 'O Sh*t really was commited to hurting anyone, they would most likely have completed the act and fled or whatever by the time I responded to the scene.

I am all for "trained & responsible" armed citizens and I realize the importance of the right to self protection. Any LE representative that supports any type of gun control with the arguement of "That's what we're here for." is basically as ignorant and dangerous, although indirectly, to the public as the BG's in my opinion. Far be it from me to encourage any citizen to rely on LE for safety instead of practicing their right to protect themselves.

As a note, please understand, my "trained & responsible" disclaimer above doesn't hint to any sort of gun control, I simply feel that without some training and a responsible attitude, some people endanger themselves and their loved ones as much, if not more than they do a possible attacker. This goes for cops as well as armed citizens. If you don't want to train and bear responsibility for your actions with a gun you shouldn't carry.

Great thread!!


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For Sale: SIG P220 - see handgun classified forum.

***************************
Georgia TFL'ers get together:
May 20, 2000-From 3pm to 6pm
http://www.wolfcreek-gun.com
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R6...aka...Chris
 
Rainbow:

If you've ever come upon the usually rare LEO that sides with the Brady Bunch on firearms, I presume they would approve of the UK.

Would they also approve of the UK's notion that the LEO also will not be armed?

Regards
 
Rainbox Six....

Would that all LEO (especially the Chiefs) have your common sense.
I also agree that training is not "gun control". Its a shame that because guns are so demonized, there isn't the number of readily available trainers/facilities as in years past.
Be safe and alert...we can't afford to lose good cops like you

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
Also, IMHO, Tamara would have survived criminal proceedings in all but the most liberal anti-gun judge/jury's courtroom if she had shot the BG on the floor. Had she waited until he was going out the door and shot, she *might* have had trouble justifying, but I still believe that *most* courts would throw it out even then.

Here's why:

#1- She used less than lethal force first, the OC spray, even though she was armed with a pistol. This proves that she avoided using readily available deadly force and that she isn't a nut just waiting to pull the trigger on someone.

#2- She fled the attacker and tried to seek refuge in the safety of her residence instead of further confrontation of the BG, even though she was armed. This makes two attempts on her part to avoid using, or even threatening to use deadly force. She tried to avoid the confrontation. This makes for a great defense.

#3- The BG continued his attack after being sprayed with OC by giving chase and entering into her residence. This clearly displays his determination to cause her harm.

All three elements of justifying deadly force were met.

The intent, giving chase...entering her appartment by force.

The ability to do harm, male against female...continued attack after being hit with OC, failure of less than lethal force to stop the attacker...

The opportunity, close proximity...at "in same room" distances in an appartment he was close enough to pose a threat to even an armed victim. The rule of thumb "ability" distance in LE training is usually 21 feet. This means that the average person can close this diatance before the average person can react and effectively defend his/her self.


Now, had she shot him in the process of aborting his attack, given the very fast paced, short time frame nature of the attack she would most likely be covered by a "action/reaction" defense.

Basically, this defense is based on the proven fact that an attacker can abort his threat and turn away in the split second between the victim making the decision that shooting is necessary and the time they actually break the shot. According to research, once the brain decides to shoot, it is virtually impossible to abort the action.

Given the fact that the shooting was justifiable by the three above requirements when the decision to shoot was made, the fact that the BG aborted before the shot broke doesn't necessarily mean that the shooting isn't justifiable. Of course, proper knowledegable legal council is paramount to the successful application of this defense. It is a proven and valid defense, but it has to be executed precisely.


------------------
For Sale: SIG P220 - see handgun classified forum.

***************************
Georgia TFL'ers get together:
May 20, 2000-From 3pm to 6pm
http://www.wolfcreek-gun.com
***************************

R6...aka...Chris
 
Bunkster,

Very doubtful. I don't know any LE's that are ready to give up their guns. In fact, I know a few that only do the job for the benefit of being able to carry a gun anytime, anywhere in most cases. Even though the laws might forbid it, how many LE's do you think would prosecute "their own" for carying a gun?

DC,

Thanks for the kind words. :)




------------------
For Sale: SIG P220 - see handgun classified forum.

***************************
Georgia TFL'ers get together:
May 20, 2000-From 3pm to 6pm
http://www.wolfcreek-gun.com
***************************

R6...aka...Chris
 
One thing we have a problem remembering - any confrontation that ends with you alive is, by definition, a successful defense.

There are degrees - obviously if your damaged, it's not as "good" as being undamaged, but it beats the alterative. Also, with AIDS, IMHO rape is attempted murder. Nevermind the "year and a day" doctrine.

Giz

PS - I am not a proponant of submission - just wanted to make the point that having the BG dead or in custody is not the desired result, but, of course, is greatly desired. :)

PPS - Giz 2, LE 0

[This message has been edited by Gizmo99 (edited May 02, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Gizmo99 (edited May 02, 2000).]
 
Times Law enforcement has saved me from a potentially deadly encounter = ZERO, Times I've saved my own bacon = TWO. Shots fired = ZERO. Came home while the burglar was still in the house, noticed a shadow when I pulled into the driveway. Retreived S&W mod 13 from glovebox. Perp must have seen the revolver as he was out the back and over the fence post haste.. Second, staying in a newly remodeled motel in South Florida, three drunken college students were trying to break down the door from the adjoining room to get to my girlfriend..A loud "come through the door and I'll shoot you" was all that was necessary to send them packing from the hotel.. They were long gone by the time LE arrived. Mark / FL
 
No problem Don. The more information we can share that will keep us law abiding gun owners out of prison the better, IMHO. United we stand... :)



------------------
For Sale: SIG P220 - see handgun classified forum.

***************************
Georgia TFL'ers get together:
May 20, 2000-From 3pm to 6pm
http://www.wolfcreek-gun.com
***************************

R6...aka...Chris
 
Me - 2, LEO's - 0 (Pre and Post LEO Career)
One ME save was very noisy and the other was not noisy at all.


I don't count the saves while I was wearing a cop suit. I can say that while I was a PO, I did happen on a serious attack in progress and abort it with a well aimed baton strike, well Kel-Light strike to be more correct. "And that ball is looooooong gone."

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Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"
 
Red Bull:

This incident pretty much convinced her that the loose-fitting springbolt in the doorknob was no substitute for the deadbolt.

As her mistake was partially responsible for my staying alive, I have avoided preaching to her about it.

But I'll do it here: A springbolt lock in the doorknob is nothing but peace of mind for the ignorant, it is easily popped with a card or pocketknife, and after a few years the lock's striker plate can get so loose and worn that a stron push on the door will cause it to jump out of its hole. Get a good deadbolt and use it.
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"..but never ever Fear. Fear is for the enemy. Fear and Bullets."
10mm: It's not the size of the Dawg in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!

[This message has been edited by Tamara (edited May 02, 2000).]
 
Tamara,
You did a super job. You gave that scum more leeway and chances to desist than my youngest (or I) would dream of doing.

You did great. Sleep well, heroine.
 
Rainbow Six,
Thanks for your words and your work. It is encouraging to hear from a LEO such as you.

I might have to disagree with you about the possible repurcussions of the "perp" being shot.
Several years ago my aunt, who was in the process of divorcing her abusive husband, was forced to use a handgun in self defense.

Fact list below:

1)He was out of jail on bond for beating her to a pulp.
2)She had sworn out a peace bond on him and he was legally required to stay a certain distance from her(I don't remember exactly how far).
3)She had changed residences....He found her new address.
4)From the first sighting of him outside of the apt. to the time of the shooting, she was on the phone with the police; gun in hand.
5)He kicked in the front door while screaming that he was going to kill her. While this was happening, she retreated to the bedroom, and blocked the door with a dresser. He broke that door as well while screaming death threats and climbing into the room. She fired at a distance of 6 feet. The bullet struck him in the center of the forehead traveled between the skull and skin and exited 1 inch in front of the right temple. It knocked him out. During all of this she repeatedly shouted that she was on the phone with the police and that she had a gun.
5)The 911 operator actually heard all of this and the call was taped.
6)When the police arrived, he was lying unconscious in the center of the floor and she was (still on the phone) sitting in the far corner of the room and crying.
7)One of the police officers actually spoke to the 911 operator at the scene.
8)They arrested, took her downtown, and charged her. He went to the hospital.

Luckily, she used her one phone call to talk to my mother and we were able to round up the $5000.00 bail quickly enough (and call in a "favor" from a detective friend) that she didn't have to actually spend the night in jail. When the case came to court, the judge threw out the charges.

Even though this case had a happy ending, my aunt came very close to being further traumatized by the "policy" of the PD. With the above situation in mind, It makes me wonder what might have happened had she not been on the phone with 911 during the entire episode.

Also keep in mind that this happened over 20 years ago in "gun friendly" Mississippi.

Side Note : My Grandfather violated Federal Law that night. He asked her what she had shot him with and she responded "a .25 automatic". He then gave her a Walther PPK and said "use this next time". Thankfully, there wasn't a "next time"

True Story.....sorry it's such a long post
 
Animal,

Actually, you just enforced my point instead of opposing it. I never said that there would be no criminal action pursued, only that Tamara would most likely have survived it (aka charges dropped, found not guilty, etc), as your grandmother did.

I don't think that an absence of the 911 recording would have necessarily changed your scenario's outcome. She had quite a defense going for her from the beginning.

Glad to hear that she didn't end up in jail for defending herself!



------------------
For Sale: SIG P220 - see handgun classified forum.

***************************
Georgia TFL'ers get together:
May 20, 2000-From 3pm to 6pm
http://www.wolfcreek-gun.com
***************************

R6...aka...Chris
 
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