Aguila Blanca
Staff
It's unlikely, and can occur only if the spring is compressed beyond its design limits. Since that can't happen with a captive spring operating in a closed mechanism, it's not anything to be worried about.Austin said:
How long have you kept her cocked and locked?
- Thread starter JJ45
- Start date
Which is exactly the scenario I'm referring to, and which is the reason that the absolute statement that "springs do not fatigue from compression" remains incorrect.
I used to spend the expensive hollow points in that SD semi-auto downrange about every 12 months. Since I use practice rounds in it too, a few months at most.
Now, I'm keeping those HPs around a bit longer than a year. Fresh bread in my lunch, and kinda fresh bullets in my SD pistol. I figure my life is worth at least $30 of bullets per year, and some practice is important, too.
Now, I'm keeping those HPs around a bit longer than a year. Fresh bread in my lunch, and kinda fresh bullets in my SD pistol. I figure my life is worth at least $30 of bullets per year, and some practice is important, too.
tarhealcracker
New member
This thread reminds me of a thread on some forum or other re "what oil is best for your guns". That thread ran for months and months with no particular conclusion too. lol
Cocked and locked is equal to the case where you put max load into the car and let it sit vs empty car and let it sit. I bet the car that have max load will sag some if you keep the load on for a long time(years) even without driving and even it is design to carry the load.
Now whether that will affect the reliability of firing is a different story. If the spring is designed to be strong enough to fire reliably even if it's is weaken from compression for extensive period of time, you'd never notice the difference. BUT, it will be weaken a little. this is just physics.
That said, I have a Gold Cup, a S&W 659 and a Glock 26. I will never even consider carrying the Gold Cup just because of SA only. The other two are just a lot safer and From my experience, the 659 is a lot more reliable even I worked a lot in making the Gold Cup reliable. It's just not up to par. It's just too finicky even after I put a lot of work into it. It's the most accurate though. I used it for competition, but it did jammed on me twice.
Sorry.
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Yeah, thats been my experience exactly. I shoot a 1911 better than any other centerfire handgun. The SA trigger, balance and weight makes a pretty fair shooter out of me.But despite all the precautions to make her a regular carry pistol (I also have a LW Commander) the weapon still fails more than is acceptable compared to others. Maybe not much but enough to make me leary. Whether it's mags, my technique or something else, I don't know but that's been my experience.
I do have a Springfield Mil-Spec 45 that I can't remember a failure but I haven't shot it enough to be confident. It's just been my experience with a few others of this platform (all Colts) that leads me to this conclusion..
Bill DeShivs
New member
I would really like to know where all you spring experts got your knowledge.
Workmanship of my Gold Cup is a piece of junk, you should see the rough tool mark inside. The slide was loose on the frame, I had to do so much work ( include squeezing the slide and lap it to get a tight fit onto the frame). Work on the extractor to get exactly the right angle so the empty casing pops out like 4' away uninterrupted by the ejector port. But the two pieces feeding ramp I cannot fix. I could never make it reliable with the Blazer JHP where the mouth of the bullet is like an ashtray.
But that said, trigger is great and damn accurate. For competition, if it jams, you lose the match. I am not going to take my chance if my life depends on it.
The Spring Field I looked at seemed to be of much better quality. It was only a cheap model half the price of the Gold Cup, but the fitting was tight, no slack of the slide. Never shot one before, but if I were to do it again, I would buy the Spring Field without second thoughts.
What happened with Colt? mine was bought in 1989, I don't know anything on the later ones. One is enough.
I still prefer DA/SA ones. Particular the ones that decock the hammer when you put the safety on. Hell, in big hurry, you can just pull the trigger, if you have time, you can cock first before firing. Not any slower than to push down the safety(or up) then shoot SA.
Ha ha, you are a knife smith, ever consider joining Forge In Fire? It's my favorite show.
My background is Electronic Engineer, but I worked on enough cars, guns and everything else mechanical that I gain knowledge through common sense and experience. Just like in Forge In Fire, they tested a thin sword by bending it to say 45deg and see whether it can return true. Sure, a good heat treat and forging ones will return true in the test. BUT, if you bend it even to 20deg, but let it sit for a long time(say months or years), you sure it can return true? I would be surprised if it does.
But as I said, if the spring is designed with enough margin, so even if it is weaker, but still strong enough to fire the primmer after prolong compressing, it's not a problem. But honestly, I would not leave it cocked and locked for years. that's just me, I am paranoid. I broke like 2 or 3 main spring through out the years from just shooting. Don't ask me why. Something about guns, after a few thousand rounds,things happen. I separate ones I use for self defense from ones I practice. The ones for self defense, I shoot and work on it to ensure it's reliable ( like 300 rounds), keep the specific bullets and NOT shoot it anymore. Then I just put a lot of rounds into those for practice.
Like my S&W 659, I worked on it until it's reliable, I keep two boxes of Federal JHP(proven reliable) and never shoot if for the last 30 years. Now I have to buy new bullets and test in one day as the old batch are getting old even I kept it in cool dry room temperature. I did it on my Walther PPKS with Winchester 380 JHP.
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Bill DeShivs
New member
"Forged in Fire" is a joke. I spoke with them before the show came out.
I make springs. I have made thousands of them.
I make springs. I have made thousands of them.
If you make spring, you should know. Like suspension of cars, even if you don't load it to max, through the years, a lot of cars sag a little. Not that it has to be a problem. As long as it doesn't bottom out prematurely, it's all good. I know some cars have ride height adjustment to compensate for that.
Like cocked and locked, you leave it for years, it got to sag a little. But as I said, if it is designed to be still strong enough, it's not going to be a problem. You just have to rely on the spring fell within the design tolerance.
Like I said, I won't NOT do that. But that just me.
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Bill DeShivs
New member
Like I said-springs don't get weak from being compressed.
Not true. These are two articles that explain:
https://idcspring.com/spring-lose-tension-when-compressed/
https://www.reddit.com/r/airsoft/comments/2d0ose/will_springs_weaken_if_they_are_kept_compressed/
That's the reason a lot of good parts specify MTBF(mean time between failure), some even give average number of cycle it can repeat.
Nothing last forever, spring will get weaken if compressed over time. This is just physics explained in the two articles. There are a lot more if you search.
BUT as I keep repeating, it might not be a problem if the spring is still strong enough to fire the primer even though it is weaker from prolong compression. Then you won't see any problem. The question is whether you want to take the chance with your life. I would not even though 99.99% chance is not going to be a problem.
I have trigger spring in two Freedom Arm small pistols broke on me, I had recoil spring of my Berrata 950 broke off after about 1500rounds. These were from normal use.
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Aguila Blanca
Staff
Alan, your second link is to a Reddit discussion. I automatically discount that, because there's no way of knowing the knowledge level or expertise of anyone who posts.
In your first link, what jumps out at me is this statement:
I saw nothing else in a quick read of the article that would lead me to think that keeping a 1911 loaded, and cocked and locked is any cause for concern.
In your first link, what jumps out at me is this statement:
I saw nothing else in a quick read of the article that would lead me to think that keeping a 1911 loaded, and cocked and locked is any cause for concern.
stinkeypete
New member
Springs don’t get fatigues from being compressed, so long as the internal forces on the spring are well below the elastic limit and times are short compared to quantum randomization of the metallic structure.
If a spring has a flaw or micro crack, stresses will concentrate and the flaw will grow.
If left under stress for thirty or forty thousand years, there may be some minor effects.
High heat will of course speed this process.
Solution: don’t use cheap springs and don’t worry about it.
Next, you’ll be asking if we put our shotguns in the safe with hammer springs compressed.
My 1946 Ithaca Model 37 still works fine. I don’t dry fire or have a snap cap for it. That spring has been compressed for over 70 years.
You should read the discussion among the shotgun fellas. It’s not that hard to find shotguns costing over $16,000 and that’s just for common old-guy clay shooting bling.
If a spring has a flaw or micro crack, stresses will concentrate and the flaw will grow.
If left under stress for thirty or forty thousand years, there may be some minor effects.
High heat will of course speed this process.
Solution: don’t use cheap springs and don’t worry about it.
Next, you’ll be asking if we put our shotguns in the safe with hammer springs compressed.
My 1946 Ithaca Model 37 still works fine. I don’t dry fire or have a snap cap for it. That spring has been compressed for over 70 years.
You should read the discussion among the shotgun fellas. It’s not that hard to find shotguns costing over $16,000 and that’s just for common old-guy clay shooting bling.
I have no idea what site to trust, there are a lot more talks about springs if you search. It is just physics we learn to a certain extend in college.
The discussion here is some people have their 1911 cocked and locked for YEARS. If the discussion is about MONTHS, I would not even mention anything. YEARS is a long time to compress.
Also like I said, I never said it's a problem if the spring still have enough strength to fire the round even though it got weaker over time. It's up to individual whether he has faith in it. Chances are it's not an issue. I personally won't do it. BUT I would NOT tell people to do or not to do. I just want to present some facts, people can take it and do it as will.
Bill DeShivs
New member
If you never cock your gun, the spring will never break.
Now, this is not constructive. Also we are not talking about breaking, it's about weakening some being compressed for years.
You make spring, you should have the most knowledge, if you have theory to back up that spring would not lose strength being cocked for years, I would love to hear it.
BTW, what's wrong with Forge In Fire? I have been watching for a while, it's very logical in their testing. If you think they are a joke, I would love to hear it. You ever audition to go there?
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Aguila Blanca
Staff
I was a physics major in college, and I assure you that compression fatigue of springs was not something we covered.Al;an0354 said:
I then went on to study architecture and structural engineering in graduate school. It was there that I encountered discussions of yield strength, and elastic and plastic limits. And, although structural engineering for buildings doesn't get into spring design (I studied that later, when I got into race car chassis work), I learned enough to be satisfied that one-time or low-repetition flexure (which is all spring compression is) within design limits doesn't result in metal fatigue. It's large numbers of repeated flexes to or beyond the elastic limit of a material that causes fatigue and (ultimately) failure.
Compression CAN certainly weaken springs.
Does it always? NO.
If the spring is never compressed too far, and is made properly with good quality materials, then leaving it compressed won't weaken it.
But if any of that changes then leaving it compressed can certainly weaken it.
This has been common knowledge in the spring-piston airgun community. The springs in those guns are often compressed until they are coilbound in an attempt to get maximum power from minimum weight and space. Leaving them cocked can easily be demonstrated to cause the spring to weaken.
Semi-auto pistol magazines are another situation where the manufacturer may be willing to sacrifice some spring life to get another couple of rounds to fit into the magazine--especially since magazine springs are often considered to be normal wear items that can be easily replaced. If you poke around a bit, you can find people telling about magazines that were left fully loaded for long periods and then failed to function properly. Either because the manufacturer set up the design so the spring was over-compressed with the mag fully loaded or because the materials weren't the best quality. You can also find many, MANY situations where it didn't as well--if the design doesn't over-compress the springs and the materials are good quality then it's not an issue.
I've personally done tests on magazines, leaving them fully loaded for up to years and in EVERY case, there was measurable weakening of the springs from leaving them loaded. In the mags I tested, that weakening was never enough to cause a failure to function, but the springs did weaken and they did weaken more the longer they were left fully loaded.
The bottom line is that both of these two statements are false:
1. Springs never weaken from being left compressed.
2. Springs always weaken from being left compressed.
In both cases, much more needs to be said before the statements can be accurate. There certainly are situations where they do weaken from being left compressed, and anyone who wants to do more testing than talking can verify that is true. But is also true that leaving them compressed may not have any effect if the design they are used in doesn't overcompress them and the materials/manufacturing are good.
Let's do this all again in a couple of weeks.
As far as this thread's specific topic goes, firearm mainsprings tend to not be over-compressed and since they are not considered a normal wear item, they are generally well-made from high-quality materials. I would not expect a firearm mainspring to weaken from the gun being left cocked. Offhand I can't recall of ever hearing or reading of such a case.
Does it always? NO.
If the spring is never compressed too far, and is made properly with good quality materials, then leaving it compressed won't weaken it.
But if any of that changes then leaving it compressed can certainly weaken it.
This has been common knowledge in the spring-piston airgun community. The springs in those guns are often compressed until they are coilbound in an attempt to get maximum power from minimum weight and space. Leaving them cocked can easily be demonstrated to cause the spring to weaken.
Semi-auto pistol magazines are another situation where the manufacturer may be willing to sacrifice some spring life to get another couple of rounds to fit into the magazine--especially since magazine springs are often considered to be normal wear items that can be easily replaced. If you poke around a bit, you can find people telling about magazines that were left fully loaded for long periods and then failed to function properly. Either because the manufacturer set up the design so the spring was over-compressed with the mag fully loaded or because the materials weren't the best quality. You can also find many, MANY situations where it didn't as well--if the design doesn't over-compress the springs and the materials are good quality then it's not an issue.
I've personally done tests on magazines, leaving them fully loaded for up to years and in EVERY case, there was measurable weakening of the springs from leaving them loaded. In the mags I tested, that weakening was never enough to cause a failure to function, but the springs did weaken and they did weaken more the longer they were left fully loaded.
The bottom line is that both of these two statements are false:
1. Springs never weaken from being left compressed.
2. Springs always weaken from being left compressed.
In both cases, much more needs to be said before the statements can be accurate. There certainly are situations where they do weaken from being left compressed, and anyone who wants to do more testing than talking can verify that is true. But is also true that leaving them compressed may not have any effect if the design they are used in doesn't overcompress them and the materials/manufacturing are good.
Let's do this all again in a couple of weeks.
As far as this thread's specific topic goes, firearm mainsprings tend to not be over-compressed and since they are not considered a normal wear item, they are generally well-made from high-quality materials. I would not expect a firearm mainspring to weaken from the gun being left cocked. Offhand I can't recall of ever hearing or reading of such a case.