How I Carry Concealed LEGALLY at Age 20 in a 21+ State

exactly my impressions.

here the permit (a NH nonresident permit and/or a Maine nonresident permit) holder is expecting the state of North Carolina (where he is a resident) to accept the NH permit in-lue-of a NC permit. There is a difference between the state of NC honoring a permit issued by one state (where you live) when your are visiting NC and the State of NC honoring it for a NC resident in NC.

I realize it is confusing to see who honors what. Yet here is a case where NC would not issue the person a permit based on his age. Then that person expects NC to honor a permit from NH or Maine. In essence he is telling NC he does not have to comply with laws imposed upon NC residents by having another state say it OK to carry in NC. You have to comply with laws per the state of your residency on alll things applicable to residents.
 
Toybox,
Florida also will not honor a NH permit held by someone under the age of 21, but like the OP said and I looked it up as well and can't find any such language in NC statutes.
I did see this on the NCDOJ web page though. I don't know that I would want to be the test case.

http://www.ncdoj.com/law_enforcement/cle_handguns_reciprocity.jsp

Reciprocity

As of August 14, 2003, North Carolina law allows residents of other states who have a Concealed Handgun Permit issued by their state to carry concealed handguns in North Carolina if the person's state also grants the same privilege to North Carolinians. Because North Carolina's law on concealed handgun reciprocity is new, the list of states that have agreements with North Carolina is changing and will be updated regularly.



http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/news/concealed_carry.html
New Hampshire (1,3,4,6)

(3) Individuals qualify for concealed weapon licenses in these states upon reaching 18 years of age. HOWEVER, any licensee of these reciprocity states who is not 21 years of age or older IS PROHIBITED from carrying a concealed weapon or firearm in Florida.
 
here the permit (a NH nonresident permit and/or a Maine nonresident permit) holder is expecting the state of North Carolina (where he is a resident) to accept the NH permit in-lue-of a NC permit.
Of course - because that's what the law of North Carolina provides for:

§ 14‑415.24. Reciprocity; out‑of‑state handgun permits.

(a) A valid concealed handgun permit or license issued by another state is valid in North Carolina if that state grants the same right to residents of North Carolina who have valid concealed handgun permits issued pursuant to this Article in their possession while carrying concealed weapons in that state.
The use of the term "their state" by the NCDOJ webpage is editorializing that carries no legal weight.
 
The use of the term "their state" by the NCDOJ webpage is editorializing that carries no legal weight.

You understand it, I understand it, but I wouldn't rely on every LEO in NC understanding it. It could make for a long weekend.
I agree in that he probably found a loophole, I just don't know that every LEO he may come in contact with understands the loophole.;)
 
will we ever know

how this will get interpreted by a NC judge or State Supreme court until someone gets prosecuted? In any event once it gets into court you can be sure the loophole some see will become a thing of the past. You can see the legislature in NC bantering around the thoughts of how another state can override NC when it comes to NC citizens doing things in NC.
 
will we ever know

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how this will get interpreted by a NC judge or State Supreme court until someone gets prosecuted? In any event once it gets into court you can be sure the loophole some see will become a thing of the past. You can see the legislature in NC bantering around the thoughts of how another state can override NC when it comes to NC citizens doing things in NC.


If it were me I'd make this thread go away and not brag on it. A judge, lawmaker, or whoever may see this and make an example. Better off flying below the radar or keeping a low profile.
 
Okay, I just figured out the potential problem... even though

as stated it will take a bunch of lawyers (judges) to finally decide. N.C. doesn't issue non-resident permits... thus other states can't decide to recognize a non-resident permit from N.C.... so there is no reciprocity agreement with other states and specifically their non-resident permits... only resident permits.

I'm not saying this is so, it's just one way that the N.C. supreme court could look at it.

The odd thing that hasn't been mentioned is that N.C. is an open carry state and I believe the original poster is with in his rights to just carry open.... in N.C.
 
so there is no reciprocity agreement with other states and specifically their non-resident permits... only resident permits.
If the law said that, then yes, that would be true, but the law doesn't say that, so it's not.

Complying with the law is not a "loophole." Anyone who's ever been to a gun show should know that.

New Hampshire recognizes North Carolina's licenses, thus North Carolina recognizes New Hampshire licenses, and vice versa. It's quite simple.
 
and no matter how you try to spin it

NC law says a resident under 21 can not carry concealed. You can spin it all you want but if this person ends up in court he'll be trying to convince a NC court that NC law does not apply to him.
 
Toy, got a chapter and verse? Here's what I see:

Section 14-415.12(a)(2) does not prohibit concealed carry by someone under the age of 21, it only bars issuance of a North Carolina concealed carry permit to such a person.

Section 14-269, where unlicensed concealed weapons are prohibited, makes no mention of age - it only requires "the person has a concealed handgun permit issued in accordance with Article 54B of this Chapter or considered valid under G.S. 14‑415.24," in 14-269(a1)(2).

And 14-415.24 is the reciprocity provision: "A valid concealed handgun permit or license issued by another state is valid in North Carolina."

So a valid license issued by New Hampshire is valid in North Carolina per 14-415.24, and any person (regardless of their state of residence because the law makes no mention of the state of residence) having such a license is exempt from the 14-269 prohibition on carrying a concealed handgun.
 
so where do we get the answer

I believe the issue has been bantered back and for until the same positions have been established multiple time. NC will or NC will not allow this resident of NC to carry concealed. None of us posting will be the one to determine which way will prevail. I doubt that we will see an actual determination unless there is some type of reason for a judge to rule.

I don't think its wrong that common folk can see an issue like this from different perspectives. Maybe its actual a good thing we have differing views. However should this end up in court I don't think the opinions on this thread will influence the outcome.

Personal I would not want to be on my way to court without having some deep pockets ready to defend me and pay any fine that might be forthcoming. For the you man in question the issue is one of very serious consequences. Should he be right, there will be no long term consequences. Should he be in the wrong he will have a lifetime of living with the consequences of having been convicted of a firearms charge. I would not want to be the one responsible for leading him into this without his being fully aware of the pitfalls should it not be favorable to him.

This kind of issue should be challanges with some advocay group of adults who can afford to bring the question to a court without having to worry about ramifications against them on a personal level. The NRA and many other groups takes things to court now and then. When they loose it doesn't put anyone on the convicted list; it mealy answers the question.
 
Complying with the law is not a "loophole." Anyone who's ever been to a gun show should know that.


I think that's aimed at me. Yes, I've been to a few gun shows. I mentioned 'loophole' because I think it is important for gun owners to be informed and prepared to defend and be proponents for your/our interest, by looking at things from an antis perspective. I think its naive to not be prepared or think that antis can make an argument from anything because of their emotional investment in the matter as opposed to the facts and actual legality.

For example, the VT shooting. Many have expressed anger at the gun supplier now that he's offered guns 'at cost'. They're screaming and asking "how could he have sold guns to Cho knowing he was mentally unstable". Well fact is, he sold guns to a man who cleared the background check. Point: It easy for antis to neglect law and fact because of their emotional stance on the matter. In the OP's case, an angry anti could easily boil this down to, if you dig enough you can 'get around' laws. Next point: Be prepared to defend. That means, be prepared to hear thing you do not agree with, with attacks that have twisted the facts. That's why I said "I can hear antis screaming "loophole!". They don't care how legal it is, they're against it and that's an argument they will use.

I KNOW it's legal, I'm on "our side".
 
Complying with the law is not a "loophole."

He is evading or going around NC law of not issuing a CCW permit to those under 21 by getting a NH permit. It's a loophole, I don't disagree with it and actually applaud his ingenuity.

loop·hole

1. a small or narrow opening, as in a wall, for looking through, for admitting light and air, or, particularly in a fortification, for the discharge of missiles against an enemy outside.
2. an opening or aperture.
3. a means of escape or evasion; a means or opportunity of evading a rule, law, etc.: There are a number of loopholes in the tax laws whereby corporations can save money.
 
It only a loophole

if it is proven to be an accurate interpretation of the laws involved by some judge or the NC legislature.

Does anyone here know any NC legislators that are gun friendly and who might check this out without say the NC AG office?
 
The NH permit is quite common in SC to provide carry in GA. SC and GA do not have reciprocity but using the NH route SC residents can be legal in GA.

Your ability to work around the assumed laws was exactly what was brought up in the debate of H. 3212 in the SC House over SC becoming a full recognition state. It was pointed out that the was the bill was proposed that it would required SC to honor permits from other states no matter what the age of the holder was. In some cases a 16 year old would be permitted to CC in SC. The proponents of the bill pooh-poohed that argument saying that everyone would have to abide by SC laws knowing full well that was the case as the bill was written. It was also pointed out that certain permits were carry permits and not concealed carry which would require SC to honor open carry for those holders.

Just as you have found that NC honors the NH permit even though you are not 21 the same would be in SC as a full recognition state rather than a full reciprocity state. I have no doubt that the promoters of the original H 3212 bill were aware of this and knew that it would hurt the chances of it being passed. Through those types of sneaky efforts we are lucky that reciprocity with any state exists.
 
Let me say, first of all, thanks a lot--really and truly--to everyone here.

Thanks for all the support AND critique. We're all pro-RKBA here, so any critique only serves to help me understand my position better, and to make all of us smarter in the process.

I wouldn't have gotten those permits without reading post after post here on TFL.

So be PROUD OF YOURSELVES.

The only reason this thread was my first post is because I didn't have anything to contribute yet.

With that said, here's my position on the concerns expressed so far -


The bottom line is, there is NO LAW for them to hold charges on. The Attorney General can't find one, MY attorney can't find one, the Sheriff can't produce a document for one, and I can't find one myself anywhere in the general statutes, and believe me, I've looked. If anyone else finds one, let me know.

Like I posted originally...

§ 14‑415.24. Reciprocity; out‑of‑state handgun permits.


(a) A valid concealed handgun permit or license issued by another state is valid in North Carolina if that state grants the same right to residents of North Carolina who have valid concealed handgun permits issued pursuant to this Article in their possession while carrying concealed weapons in that state.

* There is NO LAW in NC that says you must be 21 to possess or carry a handgun legally, the law only says you must be two to be issued a NORTH CAROLINA permit.

* EVERY government agency and official I've gotten an opinion from has been informed that I'm under 21, and a resident of NC.

NC Permit Issuing Authority in my county: "I don't see what the problem is, we have reciprocity with New Hampshire; I think your chances of actually being cited for this are slim to none."

Highway Patrol (NC's equivalent of the State Police): "If you have a permit from New Hampshire, North Carolina will honor it, just like the [attorney general's] website says."

Firearms Specialist in the NC Attorney General's Office: "Your permit is valid."

The DA's Office in my county: "If that's what the attorney general's office said, I would assume they told you the right law. I highly doubt we would even consider prosecuting a charge that conflicted with their opinion."

My own attorney: "The permit is valid, and even if you were cited with it, it can be thrown out before going to trial. Only a really overzealous DA would try to prosecute a charge like that anyway, and even if they did, you'd beat it in court."

Here's another reason I think an officer might be hesitant to charge me:

I carry the same legal reference book in my car that the police carry in theirs (it's called North Carolina Crimes, by the way, a reference book for the criminal law statutes, if you live in NC, get one). It sits in plain view on my front seat, just to let them know I have at least the same knowledge of the law that they do.

Something else I should mention, is that I'm a member of the press. I'm not just a journalism student...I've been published and I'm currently under contract. I have a press pass on my car, right under the inspection sticker. I park at crime scenes. You wouldn't believe how nice the officers at drunk stops become when they see that sticker.

I try to make it as clear as possible that not only do I have at least their knowledge of the law...I have no problem recording everything they say and having it published. Legally, all I have to do is push a button and say "This is on the record, by the way."

I know you hear about journalists getting busted all the time, but it's ALWAYS for things that are indisputable, like drug possession or drunk driving.

I'm sure a cop won't hesitate to charge someone when he knows for sure that the law is on his side, but when he's not so sure, and he's at least got some reasonable doubt (I have printed copies of the general statute, the reciprocity list, the email from the highway patrol, etc. in my car), and if he's wrong, his name will be in the newspaper...I think these factors make it less likely that I'd be charged.

If this becomes a challenge to the system, then so be it.

I know I'm messing with the system. I'm being a huge pain in the ass to the government, and I love doing it, because the government has way too much power and not enough people are willing to give them a hard time.

Everyone on this forum works hard, and every year pays more taxes for less freedom, more national debt, less valuable currency, and shi%!ier candidates every election cycle who offer amnesty to illegal immigrants while making it harder for the ones working their ASSES off to get here legally, and give more money to people living on welfare than those serving in the military.

I LIKE making the government work for me for a change. After all, that's what I pay them taxes for.
 
Like I said before....

N.C. has NO NON RESIDENT Permits... thus no other state issuing a non resident permit can recognize the same... there is no reciprocity. If you were a resident of N.H. then the permit would be valid....

So, I submit that you ask the A.G. of N.C. if they recognize non resident permits at all.

I'm not saying this is right or wrong...just one way a judge could look at it. Keep in mind one simple fact when ever 'we' debate what the sheriff, judge and lawyers are going to argue.... when that time arrives you are screwed... doesn't matter how 'right' you are... when you end up in court, you are screwed...
 
Good luck with that ADD! If you're serious about law school, I strongly suggest that you practice not using 1000 words to say what could be said in 50. ;) (Law school admissions committees generally don't like journalism majors, criminal justice majors, and a few others.)
 
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