Aguila Blanca
Staff
That's why they put headstamps on ammunition. That's why +P ammunition is stamped "+P".TruthTellers said:
How hot can .45 ACP be loaded for use in a Ruger Blackhawk or Redhawk?
- Thread starter TruthTellers
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Mr.RevolverGuy
New member
If you want to have fun with a 45 revolver look up autorim and get you some heavy freedom pills. These were not plus P but I watch one of my loads in a S&W625 supposedly not as strong as a Ruger (conversation for another thread and another day) drop a coyote at 45 yards. He was actually in a tree stand hunting deer but then figured out why he was not seeing any about 6 Yotes wondered by and did not even see or smell him up there. I have seen a Yote shot with 223 at 60 yards and run for 100 yards. This Yote dropped like a sack of rocks dropped off a cliff. Now he did have questionable shot placement LOL as he shot it right behind the ear making a mess of its head. He said he was aiming there yeah right.
If you want 45 fun safely with no possible way to put your fun ammo in your rare or beautiful 1911 look up 45 autorim.
http://www.dayattherange.com/?p=4415 See 45Autorim here
Now are we talking about the right pistol Autorim will fit in a redhawk but it absolutely will not work in a Blackhawk. You will need to have the cyclinder faced on your blackhawk 45acp cylinder to make it work http://buffalobore.net/HandloaderDecJan2012.pdf
If you want 45 fun safely with no possible way to put your fun ammo in your rare or beautiful 1911 look up 45 autorim.
http://www.dayattherange.com/?p=4415 See 45Autorim here
Now are we talking about the right pistol Autorim will fit in a redhawk but it absolutely will not work in a Blackhawk. You will need to have the cyclinder faced on your blackhawk 45acp cylinder to make it work http://buffalobore.net/HandloaderDecJan2012.pdf
Last edited:
TruthTellers
New member
.45 Auto Rim will not fit in a Redhawk.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Post #5.TruthTellers said:
See, I did read it.
TruthTellers
New member
Post 22 didn't
OK, you've got "free" brass and you want to use it. You want heavier than standard loads, Fine. You've got the gun for it, and have been warned about the possible reasons why its not a good idea. Fine.
Now lets look at only the mechanical aspects. First point, in the Redhawk, you're firing ACP in a .45 Colt chamber.
.45 ACP is spec'd to go .473" at the case mouth and .476" at the head. The .45 Colt is .480" and straight. You are, essentially "hanging" an undersize case in the colt size chamber by the moon clip's grip on the acp case.
Not an ideal situation, even at standard pressures, but it does work.
Next point, you want 1100fps loads, using ACP brass, and you want to use plated bullets, in a revolver. First off, the Redhawk is a big, heavy revolver, so a light roll crimp MIGHT be enough. It's also possible the usual taper crimp will be enough. The only way to know is to work up the loads in your gun and see what is needed to hold the bullets in place during recoil.
Next point, plated bullets. Your call, I'm not a fan of plated bullets, I use either regular cast, or jacketed. If the maker says they're ok up to 1250fps and you're shooting for 1100fps you should be ok. But I'd recommend working up to your desired level in small steps, carefully watching what the bullets actually do, not what the maker says they will do.
Last point, your desired 1100fps velocity. I didn't see where you mentioned the barrel on your Redhawk, but if its at least 5" you've "got a shot".
I've got old Lyman data showing a max charge of Unique pushing a 200gr cast bullet over 1,000fps from a 5" Colt Govt Model (.45ACP) and the same powder charge and bullet just under 1,000fps from a 5.5" revolver (.45AR brass).
SO, you should be able to get 1100fps out of your gun with acp bras, carefully working up to that, in small steps. The main factor to watch out for is how much your ACP brass "swells" and where as you increase the charge.
the other thing to watch for is shorted case life from the firing/resizing cycle. ACP cases are being worked more when fired in the .45 Colt chamber than in an ACP chamber.
I've got a load of Unique that I won't list (over book max) that clocked a 200gr JHP at 998fps from a 4.25" barrel Sig. Other than "snappy" recoil function and case appearance was normal. Same ammo fired in a 1911A1 Pin gun cratered every primer.
Worked up to, properly, in your gun I'm sure you can get the 1100fps you want, but it will be a load at or above listed book max for the .45ACP.
Good Luck and be safe!
Now lets look at only the mechanical aspects. First point, in the Redhawk, you're firing ACP in a .45 Colt chamber.
.45 ACP is spec'd to go .473" at the case mouth and .476" at the head. The .45 Colt is .480" and straight. You are, essentially "hanging" an undersize case in the colt size chamber by the moon clip's grip on the acp case.
Not an ideal situation, even at standard pressures, but it does work.
Next point, you want 1100fps loads, using ACP brass, and you want to use plated bullets, in a revolver. First off, the Redhawk is a big, heavy revolver, so a light roll crimp MIGHT be enough. It's also possible the usual taper crimp will be enough. The only way to know is to work up the loads in your gun and see what is needed to hold the bullets in place during recoil.
Next point, plated bullets. Your call, I'm not a fan of plated bullets, I use either regular cast, or jacketed. If the maker says they're ok up to 1250fps and you're shooting for 1100fps you should be ok. But I'd recommend working up to your desired level in small steps, carefully watching what the bullets actually do, not what the maker says they will do.
Last point, your desired 1100fps velocity. I didn't see where you mentioned the barrel on your Redhawk, but if its at least 5" you've "got a shot".
I've got old Lyman data showing a max charge of Unique pushing a 200gr cast bullet over 1,000fps from a 5" Colt Govt Model (.45ACP) and the same powder charge and bullet just under 1,000fps from a 5.5" revolver (.45AR brass).
SO, you should be able to get 1100fps out of your gun with acp bras, carefully working up to that, in small steps. The main factor to watch out for is how much your ACP brass "swells" and where as you increase the charge.
the other thing to watch for is shorted case life from the firing/resizing cycle. ACP cases are being worked more when fired in the .45 Colt chamber than in an ACP chamber.
I've got a load of Unique that I won't list (over book max) that clocked a 200gr JHP at 998fps from a 4.25" barrel Sig. Other than "snappy" recoil function and case appearance was normal. Same ammo fired in a 1911A1 Pin gun cratered every primer.
Worked up to, properly, in your gun I'm sure you can get the 1100fps you want, but it will be a load at or above listed book max for the .45ACP.
Good Luck and be safe!
Looking at the SAAMI drawings, it is curious that the Autorim case's rim is made a maximum of 0.040" thicker than the 45 Auto case's rim when the minimum 45 Auto extractor groove is 0.035" thick. You would expect the added thickness either to match or be slightly smaller than the minimum extractor groove so the Autorim's additional rim thickness just took up the extra thickness of the absent moon clip. But the reality is that there is a lot of variation in the clips and their thickness, as well as a lot of variation in 45 Auto extractor grooves, so you find some clips that are compatible with only some guns and only with some cases. This place sells different clips for different specific firearms. To keep up, Autorim cases would have to be manufactured with several rim thicknesses to choose from.
TruthTellers
New member
All good information and in regards to the .45 ACP in a .45 Colt chamber... that's the reason I was asking last month about re-sizing .45 ACP with a .45 Colt sizing die. Apparently someone sized two cases of ACP with both an ACP and Colt die and found no differences.
Might be a different result with different dies, but my idea is after forming the ACP cases to the chambers in the Redhawk to size them with a Colt sizer and try to get as large an OD as possible to work the brass less and decrease the amount of energy imparted on the case obturating to the chamber.
I was going to watch the cases like a hawk and see how many loads they could do. Probably would do 5 reloads with each before I toss them and get more once fired free cases at the range.
The barrel is 4.2", so I may not be able to get 1100 with a 200 gr bullet, but if I can get 1050 that's nice.
Maybe.
then again, maybe not.
The bullet pull (crimp jump) varies with the load, and the revolver it is shot in. The Redhawk, even with a 4.2" barrel is one of the heaviest revolvers out there. This weight will give less "pull" on the bullet than the same load fired in a lighter gun.
Also, a "taper crimp" is a variable amount. You CAN put a fairly heavy crimp on a round using a taper crimp. Most folks don't, but it can be done.
These variables, taken together mean you cannot predict from afar exactly what will happen in the OP's gun, regarding crimp jump.
The test is shooting, and the shooting test is loading six rounds, shooting 5 and checking the last round for bullet movement. No movement, you're done. Some movement, increase the crimp amount SLIGHTLY and shoot again. Repeat until there is no movement.
It's really that simple.
Looing at the thread title again, I see that while the OP only has a Redhawk "converable" (not sure if that's the right name), he also asks about shooting hot ACP in a Blackhawk.
I have a couple of those, and generally the answer is the same as for the Redhawk, BUT there are a couple of major differences.
First (and biggest) is that the Blackhawk uses a different cylinder for .45 Colt and .45acp. the ACP cylinder is made for ACP, and shoots nothing else. The .45 Colt cylinder will not shoot the ACP case.
And you cannot use moon clips, half moon clips, or .45 Auto Rim brass in a Blackhawk. The ACP cylinder headspaces the case on the case mouth, so a roll crimp is not to be used. Chamber dimensions are for the ACP case, so expect a different amount of fired case expansion than the Redhawk which is firing acp brass in a .45 colt chamber.
If I were going to "powder for power" AND were restricted to the ACP case, I'd choose the Blackhawk as the gun to do it with. However, since the Blackhawk also has the long colt cylinder, I wouldn't bother using the ACP for heavy loads. This is what I have done, and its worked for me since 83.
Since the OP only has a Redhawk, Blackhawk info is moot, for him. I include my opinions on the Blackhawk for others reading the thread.
I have a couple of those, and generally the answer is the same as for the Redhawk, BUT there are a couple of major differences.
First (and biggest) is that the Blackhawk uses a different cylinder for .45 Colt and .45acp. the ACP cylinder is made for ACP, and shoots nothing else. The .45 Colt cylinder will not shoot the ACP case.
And you cannot use moon clips, half moon clips, or .45 Auto Rim brass in a Blackhawk. The ACP cylinder headspaces the case on the case mouth, so a roll crimp is not to be used. Chamber dimensions are for the ACP case, so expect a different amount of fired case expansion than the Redhawk which is firing acp brass in a .45 colt chamber.
If I were going to "powder for power" AND were restricted to the ACP case, I'd choose the Blackhawk as the gun to do it with. However, since the Blackhawk also has the long colt cylinder, I wouldn't bother using the ACP for heavy loads. This is what I have done, and its worked for me since 83.
Since the OP only has a Redhawk, Blackhawk info is moot, for him. I include my opinions on the Blackhawk for others reading the thread.
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data not covered by currently published sources of tested data for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from the use of this information.
Since I don't own one of these revolvers, I decided to read a review of it to see what I could learn.
I don't have one to put pin gauges in, but I am guessing that the way the Convertable chambers work is they make them a little below the SAAMI minimum diameter for .45 Colt. The SAAMI maximum diameter of the .45 Auto chamber at 0.2" forward of the head is 0.4836". The 45 Colt minimum chamber diameter at that location is 0.4862 so there is no overlap in the SAAMI chamber spec diameters. However, that maximum 45 Auto chamber dimension does overlap the maximum diameter for a 45 Colt cartridge, which is 0.480", and most manufacturers of brass will likely aim for the finished round not to exceed 0.480" with a 0.454" bullet, so if the chamber diameter at that location were cut to the 45 Auto maximum instead of the 45 Colt minimum, 45 Colt ammo would still fit in, even if it might not slip in from a speed loader quite as easily as it would in with SAAMI spec chambers.
The above approach would make it possible to shoot both cartridges. The thinner Ruger moon clip should mean good side coverage of the 45 Auto brass. The missing element is that 45 Auto chambers taper down to an average of 0.476" at the mouth (that is the middle of the tolerance range and not the minimum number you see on a SAAMI chamber drawing). Lacking that taper, the 45 Auto brass will expand more at the mouth when loaded to a higher pressure than the 45 Colt brass will. That does not bode well for case life. It also won't help with precision groups on the target, either, as the cartridge can tip down a little in the chamber.
So, how well this works out overall is not completely clear to me, but I don't anticipate any special hazards trying higher pressures other than to keep in mind the powder column in the 45 Auto is very short, and that will cause pressure to increase rapidly with powder charge beyond a point, so work up carefully and avoid quick powders for higher pressure loads. I would try something like HS-6 or Power Pistol.
Since I don't own one of these revolvers, I decided to read a review of it to see what I could learn.
I don't have one to put pin gauges in, but I am guessing that the way the Convertable chambers work is they make them a little below the SAAMI minimum diameter for .45 Colt. The SAAMI maximum diameter of the .45 Auto chamber at 0.2" forward of the head is 0.4836". The 45 Colt minimum chamber diameter at that location is 0.4862 so there is no overlap in the SAAMI chamber spec diameters. However, that maximum 45 Auto chamber dimension does overlap the maximum diameter for a 45 Colt cartridge, which is 0.480", and most manufacturers of brass will likely aim for the finished round not to exceed 0.480" with a 0.454" bullet, so if the chamber diameter at that location were cut to the 45 Auto maximum instead of the 45 Colt minimum, 45 Colt ammo would still fit in, even if it might not slip in from a speed loader quite as easily as it would in with SAAMI spec chambers.
The above approach would make it possible to shoot both cartridges. The thinner Ruger moon clip should mean good side coverage of the 45 Auto brass. The missing element is that 45 Auto chambers taper down to an average of 0.476" at the mouth (that is the middle of the tolerance range and not the minimum number you see on a SAAMI chamber drawing). Lacking that taper, the 45 Auto brass will expand more at the mouth when loaded to a higher pressure than the 45 Colt brass will. That does not bode well for case life. It also won't help with precision groups on the target, either, as the cartridge can tip down a little in the chamber.
So, how well this works out overall is not completely clear to me, but I don't anticipate any special hazards trying higher pressures other than to keep in mind the powder column in the 45 Auto is very short, and that will cause pressure to increase rapidly with powder charge beyond a point, so work up carefully and avoid quick powders for higher pressure loads. I would try something like HS-6 or Power Pistol.
TruthTellers
New member
DPris (RIP) didn't have many good things to say about .45 ACP accuracy in the Redhawk and in my few times shooting it at 50 yards, I found it was much less accurate than 45 Colt.
That's going to be the case with either standard pressure, +P, or beyond +P and I'm fine with that. If it's not going to be accurate at longer distances, then there's no reason to be stuck with low power .45 ACP ammo when the Redhawk is capable of so much more.
So, this proposition isn't for accuracy. Max range is going to be around 25 yards and under for shooting at steel plates. DPris did make a good point back then about the lack of merit to reloading .45 ACP for use in the Redhawk due to that decrease in accuracy but hey, this is for fun, dumb fun. There's no real purpose other than to see how the concept works... and because it's cheaper for me to shoot warmer ammo.
That's going to be the case with either standard pressure, +P, or beyond +P and I'm fine with that. If it's not going to be accurate at longer distances, then there's no reason to be stuck with low power .45 ACP ammo when the Redhawk is capable of so much more.
So, this proposition isn't for accuracy. Max range is going to be around 25 yards and under for shooting at steel plates. DPris did make a good point back then about the lack of merit to reloading .45 ACP for use in the Redhawk due to that decrease in accuracy but hey, this is for fun, dumb fun. There's no real purpose other than to see how the concept works... and because it's cheaper for me to shoot warmer ammo.
You might want to use a .45 Colt sizing die when you reload your .45 ACP's so you don't work the brass so much. Power Pistol, BE-86, WSF, and AA#5 should be good powders to use. I'm sure there are others.
I think you'll have better luck using cast bullets instead of plated.
If you have any old .308 or .30-06 brass you could cut them down to about .45 S&W length and make your own speed loader cases. This would be a good second life for rifle brass that's worn out and not fit to reload. I think .308 and .30-06 have slightly different rims, so not sure which would work better.
I think you'll have better luck using cast bullets instead of plated.
If you have any old .308 or .30-06 brass you could cut them down to about .45 S&W length and make your own speed loader cases. This would be a good second life for rifle brass that's worn out and not fit to reload. I think .308 and .30-06 have slightly different rims, so not sure which would work better.
Am not sure just what you mean here..."speedloader"? cases??
If you mean cut down 06 or .308 brass and load them to use in place of ACP, there's a LOT more work involved than just cutting the rifle brass to pistol length.
First off, the rifle brass is considerably thicker than the pistol case brass. You will have to inside ream the cut down rifle brass in order to get a .45 bullet to fit. (you have to ream the brass to get a .44 bullet (.429") into it. You'd have to cut even more to get a .45 in there)
Next point is the converted rifle brass WILL have a different case capacity than pistol brass. SO, your pistol data is, essentially, out the window, and you'll have to work up loads from scratch.
The OP is looking for warm/hot loads to use in ACP brass, which he gets free as range pick up. I don't think the work involved in custom converting cases from rifle brass will appeal to him.
I think TruthTellers wants the convenience of using 45 Auto range foundlings, and converting would deprive him of that convenience. However, the suggestion to use the 45 Colt sizing die is brilliant, as long as the neck walls aren't too thin. R-P, which has about 0.010" thickness at the mouth, may present a problem. At the other extreme, I have somewhere some former-Eastern Block-made hardball cases that came loaded with 0.449" bullets (don't ask about the accuracy) and that are so thick at the neck that you can't chamber one loaded with a 0.452" cast bullet. Those would be perfect for this application, but I've forgotten the make. I'll have to look and see if I still have some left.
I used the wrong word; I meant moon clips.
I wasn't sure if you'd need to ream them or not if you cut them to about 28mm, that should be well above the case web.Okay, it's a stupid idea
You're well above the case head web, but you still need to ream them, as the rifle brass at that point is still much thicker than pistol brass.
I've made .44 Auto Mag cases from .308 rifle brass. You cut the rifle case to approx. 33mm, (1.298") and, at that length you still need to ream the brass to a depth of approx. .490" or so, in order to accept a .44 caliber bullet. A larger diameter reamer (.45 cal) would be needed for a .45 bullet.
Going closer to the case head (the 28mm you suggested) doesn't make the rifle brass any thinner, rather the opposite.
In some old books I have seen .30-06 cases turned into .45ACP cases, without reaming, BUT they were never meant for bullets, they were used for shot rounds.
it's not a stupid idea, it CAN be done, but its a foolish waste of time when commercial brass is readily available.
ATPBULLETS
New member
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data not covered by currently published sources of tested data for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from the use of this information.
What you want to do will work . Inspect your acp brass between firings. Start with your powder and bullet of choice with published load data at plus p...then increase up to 10% more powder ... watching along the way. Mine shoots acp up to midway between 45 super and 460 Rowland levels. I stopped there as my objective was met.
What you want to do will work . Inspect your acp brass between firings. Start with your powder and bullet of choice with published load data at plus p...then increase up to 10% more powder ... watching along the way. Mine shoots acp up to midway between 45 super and 460 Rowland levels. I stopped there as my objective was met.