How fast to draw?

If the fastest WESTERN draw STARTS with the shooter standing at the ready... and it is .44 of a second... it stands to reason it might take longer if he ISN'T ready.
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A bad guy will always be ready... They are robbing, raping, kidnapping or otherwise attacking you. They are no longer part of the whole OODA loop. They are making binary decisions, no cognition required. They have decided you are their victim, a plan to attack, and begun to attack.

If another person is not assaulting or attacking you, you have no right to draw and fire, indeed you have no right to draw. But by the time you have been assaulted... The bad guy, as it were, is no longer relying on cognitive processes. Basically, if you are in mortal danger, the attacker isn't using complex cognitive processes.

You can play basketball or hockey quite quickly. He sees a flaw in the defensive layout, without skipping a beat, a binary decision is made to stay or go, and he is faking left and moving right, another man moves to block, he makes the binary decision to pass or stop, in about 1/5 of a second he is passing. YOU HOWEVER - are the guy on the sideline thinking of something else when the ball hits you in the head. From there it takes YOU 2 seconds to react and decide to play, return the ball, or be a jerk to them.

When the bad guy comes at you, hes already playing the game, hes made the cognitive decisions about the attack, where to come from, to subdue you or shoot you. By the time you're involved in the mess - hes into the game. He's making simple binary decisions about how to achieve pre-set goals! You were daydreaming about an ACOG when BAM, you become aware of a rotten situation, NOW YOU RUN THE OODA LOOP, not him.

You are behind the curve. You have to make the cognitive decisions to determine if you are under attack, how bad, if its real, how many attackers - than fight or flight, and the methods to do either.

Situational awareness is everything to cut down on the amount of time it takes you to react. Speed is the key.
 
Might I suggest practice in techniques that will allow carrying the weapon at the ready while not openly displaying it? Those techniques allow rapid response without appearing to be the aggressor.

Jim
 
Jim Keenan

+1

281 and 25

Makes good sense to me...

If I know I'm in potentially dangerous place or situation...
I already have my hand on gun or even have gun in hand.

One thing, though, I think if we were as practiced at drawing as a basketball player is on the "court"... we would react instinctively and the BG's wouldn't have a chance. ;)

Randy

I agree and thank you for the "support".

And of course I think we all "could" be right if the circumstances and scenario fit the occassion... :)

I was thinking of that video of the two militia men pulling on the two LEO's and a whole lot of ammo being fired without anyone getting hit... and then the driver jumps back into his vehicle and drives off at high speed...

I still think the FIRST round needs to be "deliberately" placed.

:)
 
One thing, though, I think if we were as practiced at drawing as a basketball player is on the "court"... we would react instinctively and the BG's wouldn't have a chance.
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That is the holy grail.... To be "playing all the time." Always aware of the situation, always ready for action. The greatest part of this concept - bad guys often dont attack or attempt to prey on those who are alert and ready. They realize that their prey is already "in the game" as it were. And so they also know that they don't have a time advantage there.

The bad guys seek those who are not "in the game." They wanna hit that guy sitting on the sideline talking to his girl at the game. They want to prey on the man who isn't aware of the situation - and thus they can get a time advantage on.

To put it in terms of the OODA concept. They want to prey on someone easy, who will have to run the whole OODA cycle before responding to their attack. That gives them the time advantage, and speed is everything.

If you're going to be in la-la land... You'd better be a quick draw. Otherwise you still need to be pretty quick! :D
 
The world's fastest Western fast-draw, pulls, cocks, shoots and re-holsters, in about 44 hundreths of a second.
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Not quite.

The world's record is held by Bob Munden, who shoots as the factory rep for Browning. His time for the first shot is .02 seconds. That's two hundredths of a second!

An interesting bit of firearms trivia, and not so well known is that the second fastes shot was done by Sammy Davis Jr. He was clocked at .07 seconds.

And, as for the time a BG can get a shot off at you, it has been documented and proven that a person can get off a shot at you in .09 seconds. That's nine hundredths of a second--faster than most people can blink!
 
too fast !

Powerderman, could you post a link to a website verifying those speeds of 2/100th of a second, that seems too fast for me to believe. I can believe 44/100ths to pull-cock-fire-and rehoster.

Quote: The world's record is held by Bob Munden, who shoots as the factory rep for Browning. His time for the first shot is .02 seconds. That's two hundredths of a second!
 
Great thread!

Everytime I go to the range i see the same thing....people have one dimensional shooting practice. Weaver or police stance...and slow firing round after round. AAAAAarrrrrrrrggggghhhh! It drives me crazy because i know these people will get themselves killed in a gunfight. The good news is that statistically they will never see one.

Practice strong and weak hand...double taps..head shots in case of body armor which anyone can buy on e-bay nowadays. Reloading and firing...emptying the mag as fast as possible.

And then get some snap caps and do lots of dry firing practice from the hip or from whereever you carry....also close range where you have to hip shoot.

practice in the desert...firing from behind cover both sides...jog around and then when you are winded...check you accuracy...you won't believe how bad it sucks under stress or simulated stress.

And play paintball..lots of it. Its fun anyway and teaches you a lot about on the run tactics.

If you do all this....you MIGHT have a chance at being prepared in a gunfight!
 
no need...

for a link, I looked him up myself. so happens i dont live that far from Butte, MT. But i will still have to see exactly what he is doing in .02 seconds.
 
As has been stated before, if you aren't in condition orange or better when trouble goes down, you are likely dead or seriously hurt already.

You have to be AWARE!!!!!!

Also, remember distance and cover. Practice shooting and drawing while moving. Go over what-ifs. My favorite is: My girlfriend, kids and I are together when trouble happens. What do you do with them to protect them? Do you do it first or draw and address the threat first? The correct answer varies depending on your skill and the situation.

If you are within 10 feet or so, a simple lateral step will throw you far enough off his line that he will have a hard time reacting and hitting you in a vital organ. This is what I practice over and over. Slide step left, weak hand up to do a palm strike or a eye jab while drawing. I can do that and get two shots off from a protected gun position within 2 seconds. I can retreat to cover and get a third aimed shot in shortly after that.

Cover, distance, angled or lateral movement away from the threat. Those are tactics that increase your odds tremendously. Of course there are some times that it is just your day to die. Run, fire some semi aimed shots while moving if possible (clear shot or angled downward), just get the hell away from them.

Do not stop moving. If you stop moving you are dead.
 
No prob, Lightfoot. :)

I saw him (Bob Munden) during an exhibition shoot in El Paso, TX, during the '80's. To say that this guy is awesome is the understatement of the year.

I saw this guy draw and fan two shots from a Colt SAA so fast it sounded like an MP5 cycling. This guy is almost unbelieveable!
 
To answer the original question, low 1 second times. We did this drill recently with large and small steel poppers at around 15 yards. Most of the guys were doing mid 1 second, two of the faster shooters were right around 1.04/1.06 seconds and 1 shooter had a sub second time of .97 seconds. This was with a timer (IPSC/IDPA), drawing from the holster and hitting the steel target. It was a fun and interesting drill that I initially thought was going to be boring.
 
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If you can pull your gun and fire like most people sign there name, I think you will be in good shape. I sign my name around 20 to 25 time a day, I have gotten to a point I dont evern have to look at it. I keep seeing people say to get you mucles to remember the actions. It seems like some soud advice. In the end practice makes perfect. If you do have to pull and fire on some one all the actions should be smooth as silk.
 
Kos

Cool article...

However, too much missing info.

Also a photo series would measure from grabbing the gun to firing the gun...

The western speed draw is measured from the time the shooter releases the start button to the time the bullet impacts the target... and stops the clock.

The time is actually stopped a couple of nano-seconds before the gun is back in the holster.

Reaction time is just what it says... It is how long it takes to REACT to the threat... AVERAGE reaction time of the AVERAGE person is, in fact, about 2 seconds!!!!!!!!!

We have no idea from what stance, or what kind of holster, or where he was wearing the hoster, Agent Jelly Bryce was drawing from...

However, credit where credit is due... Agent Bryce is a perfect example of how a well-practiced draw-and-shoot can catch a BG unawares. 10 BG's are dead because of his excellent ability to draw and place his shot in a professional, deliberate and un-hesitating manner... Hence he lives... the BG doesn't... :D

(See my earlier posts, this subject)

If you want to test this... stand beside your friend who is at the ready and pointing his gun at the target...

Then you stand where he can see you, slighlty closer to the target than your friend. Then you draw, deliberately, not too fast, and put a round in the target... Your gun will very likely go off first...

This will ONLY serve to show you that his reaction time is not as fast as you think it is... and remember... HE WAS READY FOR YOU.

The more practiced you get... the more pronouced the differential will be... remember, also, he will begin to see your "tells".

DO NOT READ ANYTHING ELSE INTO THIS EXPERIMENT
JUST TAKE IT FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH... A DEMO OF REACTION TIME AND NOTHING MORE!!

:)
 
"We have no idea from what stance, or what kind of holster, or where he was wearing the hoster, Agent Jelly Bryce was drawing from.."

Actually we do. It was documented in thea November 1945 issue of LIFE magazine and timed by high speed electronic flash photography.

The stance wasd a forward crouch,
The holster was a Tom Threepersons open top forward rake design worn on the belt on the strong side.
THe pistol was an N frame .357 Magnum revolver.
THe target was man sized,
 
I'm not talking about a BG who has already drawn down on you... Much less TWO BG's... Duh!
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Oh I get it. You are going to quick draw first on the "bad" guys who don't have out guns, or don't have out other weapons that would readily justify to witnesses the reason for your draw? Witness accounts will portray you as the gun happy bad guy. I like the preventative tactic, but it may be a hard sell. I have trained several places and nobody suggests drawing down on folks who aren't showing weapons or blatantly overt signs of being about to do you harm.

Have you used this often? Have you had luck with the courts using it?
 
If you are in well covered CCW(like UNDER a shirt like original post) and have a deadly threat suddenly appear UNEXSPECTEDLY I'll bet NOONE out there gets a COM hit in less than 2 seconds. :p
The real world is much different than the range!:rolleyes:
However that 2 seconds that the master CAN do it is plenty adequate!:cool:
 
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