How fast are you?
- Thread starter AL45
- Start date
My son timed me with his phone. I would stand with my left side to the target and he would yell go. I would move my shirt up with my left hand and draw the gun with my right hand as I was turning. I would take enough time to get the front sight on center of mass. I could have fired faster, but spraying bullets in the general area of the target is a good way to miss and harm innocent bystanders. Obviously if the target is moving towards you, you must concern yourself with moving and defending yourself with your left hand while keeping the gun close to your body. Thanks guys.
zincwarrior
New member
Practice dry fire drawing and shooting to get over this fear you have of spraying bullets. This is holding you back. With a little practice you will become comfortable with short range draw and point shoot. Remember in the real world most situations are within 3 yards.
In a real world situation, it will take some time to assess the situation, determine the source of the danger, determine if deadly force is necessary, etc.
That sounds like a lot of time; it is actually a very few seconds. But if it is not done, the risks are very high of shooting an innocent person, being shot by a police officer, or even shooting yourself. On most ranges, the target is the "bad guy" and it is assumed that firing is necessary. But the real world is messier, as several police officers have found out recently. And both "activists" and the news media will be merciless; they will be out for your blood.
Training to draw and fire at something or other without engaging the brain could, in the worst case, save your life. But if you go into "automatic shoot" mode and mess up, you could be facing life in prison.
It is hard to tell the range game player that the brain needs to be part of the training - it is easier to talk about "muscle memory" and "instinctive shooting" than target identification and assessment, but the person who does not make that distinction is not going to protect himself or anyone else, whether a police officer or an armed civilian; instead he/she will be a danger to everyone.
Jim
That sounds like a lot of time; it is actually a very few seconds. But if it is not done, the risks are very high of shooting an innocent person, being shot by a police officer, or even shooting yourself. On most ranges, the target is the "bad guy" and it is assumed that firing is necessary. But the real world is messier, as several police officers have found out recently. And both "activists" and the news media will be merciless; they will be out for your blood.
Training to draw and fire at something or other without engaging the brain could, in the worst case, save your life. But if you go into "automatic shoot" mode and mess up, you could be facing life in prison.
It is hard to tell the range game player that the brain needs to be part of the training - it is easier to talk about "muscle memory" and "instinctive shooting" than target identification and assessment, but the person who does not make that distinction is not going to protect himself or anyone else, whether a police officer or an armed civilian; instead he/she will be a danger to everyone.
Jim
kraigwy
How do you time this??? " DO NOT USE A REAL GUN"
What is the shot timer doing if there is not bang? It only hears the bang from the beep.
Plus show a video where you can hit an A Zone in .5 seconds from concealment! You can imagine anything you want, but that is complete BS!. The ones that are posted never show the hits.... It only shows you can miss fast.
I've been playing this game since I started with Cooper in 1967, and have never, ever, never seen a first shot draw OPEN, let alone concealed, in under .85 seconds documented.
So just post up the video, include what shot timer you used...and show the hits
How do you time this??? " DO NOT USE A REAL GUN"
What is the shot timer doing if there is not bang? It only hears the bang from the beep.
Plus show a video where you can hit an A Zone in .5 seconds from concealment! You can imagine anything you want, but that is complete BS!. The ones that are posted never show the hits.... It only shows you can miss fast.
I've been playing this game since I started with Cooper in 1967, and have never, ever, never seen a first shot draw OPEN, let alone concealed, in under .85 seconds documented.
So just post up the video, include what shot timer you used...and show the hits
Last edited:
He didn't say anything about hitting the A zone. Also, while he was technically talking about drawing from concealment, it's not the same thing you mean when you say drawing from concealment. From his post...
Starting with your hand on the gun and with the accuracy criteria of hitting a man sized target at less than 10 feet, that doesn't sound out of the realm of possible.
Of course that's a completely different problem than starting from a position with your hands outside of a concealment garment that has to be cleared and requiring A Zone hits.
Deaf Smith
New member
I'm so fast I go back in time (and I bend bullets to.)
Deaf
kraigwy "If you pocket carry, and start with your hand in the pocket, using a shot timer, you should be able to draw, fire and hit a man size target at 3 yards in less then 0.5 seconds."
My crew and I have done countless numbers of drills over the last 15 years and have a pretty good idea of first shot times. We use either a Competition Electronics Pocket Pro or CED 7000. The drills we run are; from holding gun on target, from the low ready, from an open holster, hands at sides, hands above, from concealment, USPSA/IDPA targets at 6 feet. Holding on yields .2-3 seconds, low ready .5-.6 seconds, open holster in the high .7's, concealed .9-1.2, and these are experienced competition shooters, who shoot 6-8 matches a month, 20,000 rounds a year, using full sized guns, CZs, 1911s, Glocks, from Kydex holsters, who have drawn their guns thousands of times in competition. The open holster times are from the hip, pulling your elbow back as soon as the gun is clear, or rolling 90 degrees.
A pocket draw can only be done with a 2 finger gun, not full size, you would have to clear the pocket and roll the gun on the target even on a B27, so lets see the video. The typical human re-action time is .27 seconds.
My crew and I have done countless numbers of drills over the last 15 years and have a pretty good idea of first shot times. We use either a Competition Electronics Pocket Pro or CED 7000. The drills we run are; from holding gun on target, from the low ready, from an open holster, hands at sides, hands above, from concealment, USPSA/IDPA targets at 6 feet. Holding on yields .2-3 seconds, low ready .5-.6 seconds, open holster in the high .7's, concealed .9-1.2, and these are experienced competition shooters, who shoot 6-8 matches a month, 20,000 rounds a year, using full sized guns, CZs, 1911s, Glocks, from Kydex holsters, who have drawn their guns thousands of times in competition. The open holster times are from the hip, pulling your elbow back as soon as the gun is clear, or rolling 90 degrees.
A pocket draw can only be done with a 2 finger gun, not full size, you would have to clear the pocket and roll the gun on the target even on a B27, so lets see the video. The typical human re-action time is .27 seconds.
zincwarrior
New member
Very true. I would say what we are discussing here is the action once the decision is made.
Tactical Jackalope
New member
1.10 - 1.50's. Depends on the gun. I carry appendix IWB.
hints and tips
A few handy tips based on my personal experience, your own feelings or experience may vary.
1. Start off with a good stout belt, I like the widest belt possible to fit the holster loops, so the holster does not shift around.
2. A good quality holster with a thumb break or retention strap.
3. I prefer a separate belt for my holster, not threaded through my pants belt loops.
4. Although I have pocket carried, it is NOT the best way to carry, at least use a pocket holster.
We used to see folks carry a High Standard 2 shot .22 Magnum in a wallet type pocket holster, and if a robber asks for your money, you look as if you are handing over your wallet, and you can shoot without removing the gun from the wallet holster, since it is designed for that.
A few handy tips based on my personal experience, your own feelings or experience may vary.
1. Start off with a good stout belt, I like the widest belt possible to fit the holster loops, so the holster does not shift around.
2. A good quality holster with a thumb break or retention strap.
3. I prefer a separate belt for my holster, not threaded through my pants belt loops.
4. Although I have pocket carried, it is NOT the best way to carry, at least use a pocket holster.
We used to see folks carry a High Standard 2 shot .22 Magnum in a wallet type pocket holster, and if a robber asks for your money, you look as if you are handing over your wallet, and you can shoot without removing the gun from the wallet holster, since it is designed for that.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
Well, your post managed to hit on about 20 different subjects that made me want to comment.
First, let me emphasize how important a good form and smooth draw is to speed. I would really recommend you get some formal training on how to draw a pistol smoothly and efficiently and then practice the fundamentals with an emphasis on executing each step smoothly and correctly rather than concentrating on speed. You'll be surprised how much that will assist with speed.
If like many people, you haven't yet been convinced of the value of formal training, at least take a look at this Paul Gomez video on the drawstroke. Jerry Miculek also has some great pointers on his YouTube channel. The thing is, a lot of people want to get fast, and so they practice and end up spending time developing and ingraining bad habits that they later have to work twice as hard to correct. Spending some money and time on good, effective training before you've developed those bad habits will usually save you money and time in the long run.
Also, dryfire practice (and lots of it) is important to establishing a solid, smooth, draw. Give some thought to that and make sure you have a safe backstop when practicing dryfire.
Second, if you want to evaluate your progress on draw speed, you need a good shot timer. You can buy one from any of the various shooting stores. If you are on a budget but you have a smartphone, you can even download a free shot timer app from Surefire that turns your smartphone into a shot timer. You just aren't going to get good data trying to time it yourself. There is your reaction time, the guy timing's reaction time - all kinds of little things that can conspire to add or subtract a good half second or more to your time.
Third, while I've never met anyone who wanted to shoot slower, most people are better served working on their situational awareness skills and thinking about how to handle potential incidents before they happen. Let's look at you for example. If you work really hard and manage a 75% reduction in your draw time that gets you to a 0.8125 second first shot at ten yards, which makes you competitive at the professional level. It also gives you what, an extra 2.2 seconds to work with in a life or death scenario? And you will need to work hard to reach that level of proficiency. On the other hand, noticing a potential problem before it becomes a problem and making a plan while you can still think calmly without your heart hammering has the potential to save you a lot more than 2.2 seconds.
To give an example, I once did a scenario where two guys begin arguing about their criminal enterprise in a diner. The argument escalates into a fight. One guy ends up shooting the other and then he is staring at you and the waitress - the only witnesses to what just happened. One of the participants just got up and "left the diner" as soon as the two started arguing. How fast his draw was didn't matter; because he used the time gained by good situational awareness to get away from that situation. I, on the other hand, got all keyed up - waiting to draw. Then I realized they were going to kill each other, I relaxed and sat there watching like it was a TV show, not thinking until the guy turned that pistol towards me how witnesses might be inconvenient for him. At that point, a 0.8125 second draw would not have helped me much.
So an emphasis on speed of draw is definitely useful; but there are usually other places in the Observation, Orientation, Decision, Action (OODA) loop where you can save more time and help yourself more in a self-defense scenario.
First, let me emphasize how important a good form and smooth draw is to speed. I would really recommend you get some formal training on how to draw a pistol smoothly and efficiently and then practice the fundamentals with an emphasis on executing each step smoothly and correctly rather than concentrating on speed. You'll be surprised how much that will assist with speed.
If like many people, you haven't yet been convinced of the value of formal training, at least take a look at this Paul Gomez video on the drawstroke. Jerry Miculek also has some great pointers on his YouTube channel. The thing is, a lot of people want to get fast, and so they practice and end up spending time developing and ingraining bad habits that they later have to work twice as hard to correct. Spending some money and time on good, effective training before you've developed those bad habits will usually save you money and time in the long run.
Also, dryfire practice (and lots of it) is important to establishing a solid, smooth, draw. Give some thought to that and make sure you have a safe backstop when practicing dryfire.
Second, if you want to evaluate your progress on draw speed, you need a good shot timer. You can buy one from any of the various shooting stores. If you are on a budget but you have a smartphone, you can even download a free shot timer app from Surefire that turns your smartphone into a shot timer. You just aren't going to get good data trying to time it yourself. There is your reaction time, the guy timing's reaction time - all kinds of little things that can conspire to add or subtract a good half second or more to your time.
Third, while I've never met anyone who wanted to shoot slower, most people are better served working on their situational awareness skills and thinking about how to handle potential incidents before they happen. Let's look at you for example. If you work really hard and manage a 75% reduction in your draw time that gets you to a 0.8125 second first shot at ten yards, which makes you competitive at the professional level. It also gives you what, an extra 2.2 seconds to work with in a life or death scenario? And you will need to work hard to reach that level of proficiency. On the other hand, noticing a potential problem before it becomes a problem and making a plan while you can still think calmly without your heart hammering has the potential to save you a lot more than 2.2 seconds.
To give an example, I once did a scenario where two guys begin arguing about their criminal enterprise in a diner. The argument escalates into a fight. One guy ends up shooting the other and then he is staring at you and the waitress - the only witnesses to what just happened. One of the participants just got up and "left the diner" as soon as the two started arguing. How fast his draw was didn't matter; because he used the time gained by good situational awareness to get away from that situation. I, on the other hand, got all keyed up - waiting to draw. Then I realized they were going to kill each other, I relaxed and sat there watching like it was a TV show, not thinking until the guy turned that pistol towards me how witnesses might be inconvenient for him. At that point, a 0.8125 second draw would not have helped me much.
So an emphasis on speed of draw is definitely useful; but there are usually other places in the Observation, Orientation, Decision, Action (OODA) loop where you can save more time and help yourself more in a self-defense scenario.
^ Very sound advice! I have heard it echoed by many professional instructors.
No substitute whatsoever for situational awareness.
One trainer I know said it this way: "People talk about this gun or that ammo, but you know what I'd like to have most in a gun fight? One half second. One half second more to see it coming, and you can only get that through situational awareness."
No substitute whatsoever for situational awareness.
One trainer I know said it this way: "People talk about this gun or that ammo, but you know what I'd like to have most in a gun fight? One half second. One half second more to see it coming, and you can only get that through situational awareness."
stonewall50
New member
Fast is smooth, smooth is fast.
I will add that it is REALLY important to learn how to handle a physical altercation. Especially grappling. Being fast is great, but how fast will you be with bad form getting thrown around, punched, kicked, and knocked down?
I will add that it is REALLY important to learn how to handle a physical altercation. Especially grappling. Being fast is great, but how fast will you be with bad form getting thrown around, punched, kicked, and knocked down?
jersurf101
New member
Draw speed is important. There is no doubt. In security forces school (marines) we had 1.5 second to draw and put two in the chest at 7 yards. The thinking is the average individual can cover 21 feet in that time. But there is obviously more to it. Hip drills at 5 yards and under and basic grappling techniques as others have mentioned are important too. Pistol distances tend to be so close that there is a very good chance that you will within arms reach or closer of your aggressor when it is all said and done.
Practice! Practice! Practice! Drawing is all about muscle memory.
Practice! Practice! Practice! Drawing is all about muscle memory.
How "fast" someone can draw and accurately fire a handgun is often sort of an artificial yardstick. Competition is one thing, but off the range? Other factors are often involved.
One time when I was attending an outside training class, one of the yardsticks used at the beginning and end of the week was drawing from realistic working concealment leather & working concealment clothing (plainclothes/tactics class). No IDPA, fishing or camera vests permitted.
Since it was an outside class occurring in winter months, much of my range work was done wearing layers, and my working leather was an OWB plainclothes holster. It was being worn underneath a pullover sweatshirt, under a zippered sweatshirt, under an insulated/quilted, thigh length coat. I ordinarily wore a suit or sport coat as a working cover garment, and sometimes a raincoat, but I thought the thicker layered clothing would make me work harder and help me learn whatever was being taught (and keep me warm ).
There wasn't a pass/fail time for the drill, but it was recommended that being able to complete it in 1.5 seconds or less was probably desirable.
The drill was drawing on an expected timer beep, firing a single shot at an identified threat target, at 5yds, using a 2-handed grip, while stepping offline to one side. Simple, right? A couple guys objected to the 2-handed requirement, as they believed 1-handed was faster. Well, they're right, it is faster doing 1-handed/hip-shooting ... except that 2-handed better lends itself to controllability, accuracy and using the sights. Tougher test drill.
Only 2 or 3 of us did it under 1.5 seconds on the first time through on the first day, but a lot of the class reached the goal, or came really close, by the end of the week.
Now, is that realistic for trying to gauge performance in the real world? Well, consider that we were positioned and expecting to shoot, at an already identified threat target, shooting a pre-determined number of rounds, anticipating the signal, not distracted by doing other physical activities or having to see/hear anything else ... and we knew nobody was going to be shooting at us.
Now, later in the week, that last bit (nobody shooting at us) was changed by including scenario training using Sim/FX marking cartridge guns, and things predictably went a bit to hell for some folks.
In the real world there are all kinds of expectations and distractions going on. Real reaction time has to be taken into account, too. Not just the reaction time while expecting and knowing you're going to shoot at something clearly anticipated, like on the target/training range, but within the possible context of the unknown imminent threat being mixed in and often hidden within everything that's happening around us in the real world.
The OODA Loop's first couple of steps are the hard ones, meaning to Observe and Orient on something happening. Being aware enough to observe it's happening, and cognizant enough to orient on how it may affect you, can take time. That doesn't take into account the "This CAN'T be happening TO ME!?!" reaction, either. That can burn time, too. The Freeze, Flight or Fight reaction is seemingly hard-wired into us, and it takes some effort to overcome its oft unexpected effects.
Then, there's got to be the Decide portion of the thought process. More time burnt. Especially if you got side tracked into the freeze reaction.
Lastly, the Act part of the process. It helps to not only have a plan about what to do, but probably some training and experience in actually doing it, and under some stress and duress. Subconscious competence, so to speak, without having to stop and consciously go through that mental Rolodex for each step of what you need to DO RIGHT NOW.
So, sure, some safe and controlled skills assessment is a fine thing, and it can help you identify where you may need some attention. It's just that being able to be "face" a known practice target, under ideal range conditions, may be better as a training/practice aid than something which may predict performance under surprise, stressful conditions which weren't replicated on a range.
Gotta be aware of what's happening, first, though, in order to hope to get past the "observant" part of things. You can practice that all the time.
BTW, when I got back from my training class, and was a bit proud of my performance, the head instructor did an impromptu demonstration. He'd been up all night working graveyard and was overtired and drinking coffee. While wearing his duty rig, without a cover garment (since he didn't have one on at the moment), he held his coffee cup in his off hand and told me to start the timer whenever I felt like it.
I waited a bit and did so. Without spilling a drop, he drew on the buzzer and fired a shot (1-handed, since he wasn't dropping his coffee) accurately into the smallest scoring zone of the silhouette. He did it twice, just to show me that sub .6 & .7 second times weren't flukes. No grumbling about what if he'd been better rested, either. Sigh. Back to the training range, right?
One time when I was attending an outside training class, one of the yardsticks used at the beginning and end of the week was drawing from realistic working concealment leather & working concealment clothing (plainclothes/tactics class). No IDPA, fishing or camera vests permitted.
Since it was an outside class occurring in winter months, much of my range work was done wearing layers, and my working leather was an OWB plainclothes holster. It was being worn underneath a pullover sweatshirt, under a zippered sweatshirt, under an insulated/quilted, thigh length coat. I ordinarily wore a suit or sport coat as a working cover garment, and sometimes a raincoat, but I thought the thicker layered clothing would make me work harder and help me learn whatever was being taught (and keep me warm
).There wasn't a pass/fail time for the drill, but it was recommended that being able to complete it in 1.5 seconds or less was probably desirable.
The drill was drawing on an expected timer beep, firing a single shot at an identified threat target, at 5yds, using a 2-handed grip, while stepping offline to one side. Simple, right? A couple guys objected to the 2-handed requirement, as they believed 1-handed was faster. Well, they're right, it is faster doing 1-handed/hip-shooting ... except that 2-handed better lends itself to controllability, accuracy and using the sights. Tougher test drill.
Only 2 or 3 of us did it under 1.5 seconds on the first time through on the first day, but a lot of the class reached the goal, or came really close, by the end of the week.
Now, is that realistic for trying to gauge performance in the real world? Well, consider that we were positioned and expecting to shoot, at an already identified threat target, shooting a pre-determined number of rounds, anticipating the signal, not distracted by doing other physical activities or having to see/hear anything else ... and we knew nobody was going to be shooting at us.
Now, later in the week, that last bit (nobody shooting at us) was changed by including scenario training using Sim/FX marking cartridge guns, and things predictably went a bit to hell for some folks.
In the real world there are all kinds of expectations and distractions going on. Real reaction time has to be taken into account, too. Not just the reaction time while expecting and knowing you're going to shoot at something clearly anticipated, like on the target/training range, but within the possible context of the unknown imminent threat being mixed in and often hidden within everything that's happening around us in the real world.
The OODA Loop's first couple of steps are the hard ones, meaning to Observe and Orient on something happening. Being aware enough to observe it's happening, and cognizant enough to orient on how it may affect you, can take time. That doesn't take into account the "This CAN'T be happening TO ME!?!" reaction, either. That can burn time, too. The Freeze, Flight or Fight reaction is seemingly hard-wired into us, and it takes some effort to overcome its oft unexpected effects.
Then, there's got to be the Decide portion of the thought process. More time burnt. Especially if you got side tracked into the freeze reaction.
Lastly, the Act part of the process. It helps to not only have a plan about what to do, but probably some training and experience in actually doing it, and under some stress and duress. Subconscious competence, so to speak, without having to stop and consciously go through that mental Rolodex for each step of what you need to DO RIGHT NOW.
So, sure, some safe and controlled skills assessment is a fine thing, and it can help you identify where you may need some attention. It's just that being able to be "face" a known practice target, under ideal range conditions, may be better as a training/practice aid than something which may predict performance under surprise, stressful conditions which weren't replicated on a range.
Gotta be aware of what's happening, first, though, in order to hope to get past the "observant" part of things.
You can practice that all the time.BTW, when I got back from my training class, and was a bit proud of my performance, the head instructor did an impromptu demonstration. He'd been up all night working graveyard and was overtired and drinking coffee. While wearing his duty rig, without a cover garment (since he didn't have one on at the moment), he held his coffee cup in his off hand and told me to start the timer whenever I felt like it.
I waited a bit and did so. Without spilling a drop, he drew on the buzzer and fired a shot (1-handed, since he wasn't dropping his coffee) accurately into the smallest scoring zone of the silhouette. He did it twice, just to show me that sub .6 & .7 second times weren't flukes. No grumbling about what if he'd been better rested, either. Sigh. Back to the training range, right?