How do you react?

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"At the individual level, armed resistance with a gun can reduce the likelihood that a crime is completed but might increase the victim's chance of becoming injured."
This does not address the issue. It CAN reduce, it MIGHT increase? That's not what you said, and if that HAD been what you said I would never have responded at all because that statement is so subjective and so lacking in objective metric as to be essentially meaningless.
David Armstrong said:
This is why I hate to even play this game, John. NOWHERE did I say anything about Kleck's study results being dangerously misleading. Therefore it will be pretty hard to provide a link to stats that say something that I never said. Kleck's work is not misleading, it is not dangerous, it needs to be understood.
This is double-talk. You know very well what I'm referring to and I am equally well aware of what you said. You stated that:
David Armstrong said:
That has become one of those horribly mis-leading facts, sort of like the antis "a gun is 43 times more likely to kill a friend or family member" thing. Yes, if you resist with a firearm you have a better chance of remaining uninjured--assuming all violent crimes including those where the BG is not armed with a gun (the majority of them, BTW). When controlled for that factor, injury rates seem to go higher and the severity of the injuries also goes higher.
I want to know how much higher the "injury rates seem to go" and also how much higher the "severity of the injuries goes".

We're talking about information that would be used in making life & death decisions here. If you have the information provide it.
 
Last time I checked the FBI stats for San Francisco, I had a one in 17 chance, every year, of being the victim of a violent crime. I don't think those are good odds. Most major cities are in about that range and, again, I don't think those are good odds. I'm sure my trips to Oakland, Richmond, Pitt Kali, and others in the area do NOT improve my odds.

I've been mugged once for being wrong place wrong time, and, unarmed. I'd like that not to happen again...
 
This does not address the issue. It CAN reduce, it MIGHT increase?
Yes. It can, it might. That is the language of professional researchers in soft sciences. Again, that is why I hate to even get into these sorts of things and usually tell folks to go do their own research. If the numbers say that it will reduce injury 99 times out of 100, it is referred to as CAN reduce.
That's not what you said,
Not exactly, but it is pretty darned close: "When controlled for that factor, injury rates seem to go higher...." isn't that much different from "can go higher" or "might go higher".
This is double-talk. You know very well what I'm referring to and I am equally well aware of what you said. You stated that:
I stated one thing. You then said that I stated something else entirely. Then you say that I'm engaging in double talk. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. If you want to discuss what I have said, I'll be glad to discuss it. If you want me to discuss things that you claim I said but I did not say, I will point out that I did not say them.
I want to know how much higher the "injury rates seem to go" and also how much higher the "severity of the injuries goes".
It doesn't work that way. Different studies lead to different finding, various severity levels, and so on. That is why we discuss propensities and likelihoods. We are talking social science research, not mathematics. If you want to decide something based on the research, please, feel free to examine it. Feel free to take research methodology classes and survey design courses. But you asked for an item, I gave it to you, and now you want to argue about it. If you don't like my info, if you don't like the findings, please go look this stuff up for yourself.
 
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or just says everyone throw your stuff in the sack while someone else is waiving a gun around from the front door... 20 feet away with 20 folks in between.

My CWP Instructor, a retired police force veteran with over 25 years of service, told us: "If someone pulls or points a gun, you MUST assume they intend to use it."

The penalty for guessing wrong is too great.
 
So what was his suggestion about how to react when a gun was pointed at you?

Move and draw - I've 'shot' folks who tried to do that in FOF when I was the BG. I've also seen folks draw against a gun pointed at them and shoot the BG. I've been in ones where everyone got shot.

However, I've also complied in a FOF robbery and was 'shot' - statements by 'experts' do not guarantee anything.

It all comes down to thinking. What action minimizes your harm? There's no one answer - it is situational. I wouldn't make the decision based on some internet outrage and philosophy. I decide on what makes less holes and oozing out of Glenn.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Armstrong
John, I've done that before in these discussions. If you didn't check them then, why should I dig them back up now for you not to check again?

If I've ever been involved in a discussion with you where you provided a cite/link to the statistics you described I don't recall it.
My apologies to John on this. I was sure we had been through that here on this forum, but I had confused it with another John at another forum. Mea Culpa.
 
I am a regular listener of Tom Gresham's Guntalk Radio. He does a show called Personal Defense TV. I really like the show and watch it a lot. On one of his latest radio segments he speaks of some force on force training he did for one of his PDTV shows and told us how many times he was "killed" while in these types of scenarios. I think one was a conveinience store holdup and another was a disgruntled employee and Tom was trying to "save" the boss from being shot. He said on his show that he got killed almost EVERY time he tried to intervene. He lived when he ran. Maybe some of you heard his show. It will be on PDTV and I hope I can get it as I don't get the channel he moved to. Maybe it is on his web site guntalk.tv and I will enroll there.

Bottomline, a guy could really get killed doing this and the only advantage IMHO we gun owners would have on the bad guy was surprise. If he didn't know we were armed and he got to looking at something else then maybe if it was up close and personal. But I don't know? I am glad I can carry but I can sure still get killed and it may be my day to go. At least I would have a chance with a gun and none without it.

The OP scenario is a bit too open ended to tell for sure.
 
I have never been a fan of playing the odds (my luck is not good) especially if being wrong could mean being dead. An obvious exception is already having a gun pointed at me.

I would rather rely on my abilities than the bad guys decision. If I wait until escalation from the bad guy I might not have the opportunity and I certainly won't have the surprise.
 
"My CWP Instructor, a retired police force veteran with over 25 years of service, told us: "If someone pulls or points a gun, you MUST assume they intend to use it."
The penalty for guessing wrong is too great.
Keltyke

in a smaller situation...on the street or as a shopowner behind my counter, or in my house...i am OK with that. i am also more prepared for that, especially at home or at the shop.
i can understand the same premise about the robber's intent in this particular Waffle incident or similar.

but my actions are hopefully gonna be somewhat different and maybe more measured, depending on the circumstances...for a myriad of reasons, unless perhaps i am the first one the gun is drawn and pointed at. currently thinking more along the lines of Tennessee Gentleman's post. at least for an on-line situation with so many details open.
 
David Armstrong said:
If the numbers say that it will reduce injury 99 times out of 100, it is referred to as CAN reduce.
Unfortunately if the numbers say that it will reduce injury 1 time out of 10,000 it is STILL referred to as "CAN reduce".

That is why I keep asking for the data so we can see exactly what it says as opposed to trying to analyze someone's vaguely worded characterization of the data.
David Armstrong said:
It doesn't work that way. Different studies lead to different finding, various severity levels, and so on. That is why we discuss propensities and likelihoods. We are talking social science research, not mathematics.
If you can't provide the numbers, at least provide the name of the study that contains the numbers (or objectively quantified results, if there are no numbers--though I find that possibility quite unlikely).

Regarding your comment about different studies; to be clear, nothing I've said should be construed to restrict you to providing the results of only a single study. If you know of "different studies" that support your argument then provide them all. I emphasize the word "studies" to make it clear that I'm interested in the study itself, not in a subjectively worded one sentence summary of the study.
David Armstrong said:
If you want to discuss what I have said, I'll be glad to discuss it.
Ok, let's try this again. You stated that:
David Armstrong said:
That has become one of those horribly mis-leading facts, sort of like the antis "a gun is 43 times more likely to kill a friend or family member" thing. Yes, if you resist with a firearm you have a better chance of remaining uninjured--assuming all violent crimes including those where the BG is not armed with a gun (the majority of them, BTW). When controlled for that factor, injury rates seem to go higher and the severity of the injuries also goes higher.
Let's see the study results you're referring to that are controlled for the factor of whether or not the BG is armed.

Posting that I should "go look them up" is not reasonable, in fact it is an example of the logical fallacy called the Burden of Proof Fallacy. You brought up this alleged study saying it supported your argument that the fact I quoted based on Kleck's study was "horribly misleading". That means that the burden of proof (as to the existence of the study, its contents and its support of your argument) is on you.
 
That is why I keep asking for the data so we can see exactly what it says as opposed to trying to analyze someone's vaguely worded characterization of the data.
There is no single source of data. There are dozens of sources of data, all of which measure different things at different times. Figuring out how they all work together and what trends they indicate is the issue.
If you know of "different studies" that support your argument then provide them all.
If you disagree with what I have said, please feel free to provide whatever evidence you think you need to support your disagreement. If you disagree with the conclusions I have posted, feel free to offer conclusions of your own. But if we are going to play the "please cite your sources" game here I'll play, provided it applies equally to everybody else and all the time. Failing in that, I feel no need to conduct research on behalf of another party.
Posting that I should "go look them up" is not reasonable
From your point, perhaps so. From my point, it is quite reasonable. Again, if we are going to hold everybody to the same standard of proof, I'll be glad to play. But unless we all play by the same rules I see no reason for me to do something that others do not have to do.
You brought up this alleged study saying it supported your argument that the fact I quoted based on Kleck's study was "horribly misleading".
No. I pointed out your statement, while factually correct, was horribly misleading, much like the "43 times" quote used by the antis. Then in another post I showed why I felt the statement was misleading, using the 2002 data to identify some of the problems with it. The studies (note that it is plural) showing higher rates and severity of injury are not in conflict with Kleck's study, they are a refinement of the information relating to a smaller subset. Thus while one bit of research looks at guns used in defense against ALL robbers, the other study looks at guns used in defense against robbers armed with guns. Then I give you a citation to support that statement I made, and you reject it out of hand because it doesn't meet your standards of specificity, in spite of the fact that it uses the language that is considered appropriate by the professionals in the field.
That means that the burden of proof (as to the existence of the study, its contents and its support of your argument) is on you.
Actually, if you want to use formal rules regarding burden of proof, I have provided a sourced citation from a qualified person in the field in support of what I have said, thus meeting my burden of proof. It is now incumbent upon you to either show why the source is not to be believed or provide a source of your own with equal or better qualifications in opposition.
 
:rolleyes: Me? I'd just sit there, do my level best to ignore them, avoid eye contact, and continue eating those delicious white flour pancakes! As long as the BG's don't start frisking and robbing individual customers I wouldn't so much as blink an eye.

Now, if they decide to start frisking the customers I've got a serious problem on my hands - One that I'm not going to be able to hide! Then, it would be a, 'crap shoot' for me to accurately guesstimate whether or not they're going to violently respond when they discover the, 'gun store' I'm carrying underneath my cover garment.

I try to live by the golden rule: I wouldn't want some well-meaning citizen to heroically open up in the middle of a small confined room while me and mine were there; consequently, I prefer to show the same respect for life and reluctance to start a gunfight in front of everyone else.

(I'm positive I'd be very angry at someone who took it upon himself to kick off a heroic gunfight right in front of me - Especially if it were for something as just plain stupid as money or property.) :mad:
 
David Armstrong said:
If you disagree with what I have said, please feel free to provide whatever evidence you think you need to support your disagreement.
David, I'm not the one disagreeing. I am still asking you to provide supporting evidence for your disagreement with my original comment.

If you remember how this started--I made a comment based on Kleck's data. You disagreed (said it was "horribly misleading") and implied that you were basing your statement on supporting data that was controlled for the factor of whether the BG was armed or not.

Now you're trying to claim that my asking you to reveal that data is disagreement on my part. That is absolutely incorrect. We're still dealing with your refusal to provide any reasonable supporting evidence to corroborate your initial disagreement with my comment.

To this point you have refused to provide any supporting evidence. The quote you provided** does not support your original contention in any way, shape, or form because it makes NO attempt to differentiate between the case when the attacker is armed and when he is not--the entire point of your original comment.

** "At the individual level, armed resistance with a gun can reduce the likelihood that a crime is completed but might increase the victim's chance of becoming injured." CRIME CONTROL IN AMERICA (2ed) by John L. Worrall, page 258."​
 
Night watch, I respect your views. But to some of us the presence of a bad person "IN MY SPACE" trying to intimidate me and mine into giving up our belongings with the possibility of violence even if we comply is more than I will accept. If a bum on the street politely asked for my cash I would turn him down as I have no extra to spare so why comply with someone trying to force me into it?
Like I said If an armed person approaches my table I am going ape crap on him with what ever I have. If some one so much as trys to snatch a piece of my pancakes off my plate they will be met with the sharp end of my fork! Ask my kids... I don't give up what is mine easily... And honor is as much a reason to fight as anything.
I am not a gun toter currently and would never shoot someone for wanting my goods but if they try to use force I have all legal rights to assume severe bodily harm is intended and thus will retaliate... I have not won every scrap I have been in but have in the vast majority and some were against well armed individuals...
Brent
 
Like I said If an armed person approaches my table I am going ape crap on him with what ever I have.

So if a person armed with a sawed off shot gun walked up to your table and stood 6 feet away and said "Throw your wallet to my partner" - you will jump up with your fork?
 
Single shot or pump? No at that distance I will just tell him in more colorful language to go fly a kite in hopes he gets stupid and approaches... I do hope another patron takes this opportunity to take the shotgun toter out!
Brent
 
I am still asking you to provide supporting evidence for your disagreement with my original comment.
Did that. You may not like it, you may disagree with it, but that was done.
You disagreed (said it was "horribly misleading") and implied that you were basing your statement on supporting data that was controlled for the factor of whether the BG was armed or not.
Not quite right. You seem to be co-mingling two things. One was that the data is misleading because of what the data is. The other is that there is other data that provides some evidence of a factor that is not addressed in the Kleck article.
Now you're trying to claim that my asking you to reveal that data is disagreement on my part. That is absolutely incorrect.
Nope. I'm saying if you disagree with what I have said about the findings of some of the research in the field please feel free to provide whatever you feel supports that disagreement. If you don't disagree there is no need for either of us to argue the point, IMO.
To this point you have refused to provide any supporting evidence.
Evidence has been provided. There was an explanation, with data provided, that showed why the Kleck finding as being used was questionable. There was a citation from an expert in the filed supporting the idea that ther can be increased injury when defending. You might not like that support, but let's not deny that it is there and was provided.
The quote you provided** does not support your original contention in any way, shape, or form because it makes NO attempt to differentiate between the case when the attacker is armed and when he is not
It supports the contention that fighting back with a gun can result in a greater chance of injuries than not fighting back.
the entire point of your original comment.
There are two points. One, the Kleck statement is misleading. I have discussed why it is misleading, even though factually correct. Second, using a gun to defend yourself might result in greater injury.
Out of curiosity, John, did you read the Worrall book? If not, why why this demand for chapter and verse citations?
 
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So Hogdogs - you preach the absolute and then hedge your bets? :D

If he doesn't approach, do you throw the wallet? If you don't said BG may shoot to gain compliance for the others.

BTW, in a Florida incident - two geezers shot a shotgun carrying BG with a 22Mag NAA Mini and a 22 Mag Derringer. Said BG took the rounds in the belly and fled.

They didn't stick a fork in him or frisbee their early bird special at him in a whirling boneless chicken breast of death.
 
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