How do you defend yourself against pirates and terrorists?

[Ian0351]

I really shouldn't even have to point this out, but shooting clays has almost nothing in common with hitting a ship bigger than two football fields.

ummm... where to begin here... have you ever ridden in a zodiac in stage 3 seas? have you ever fired a shoulder fired rocket? I have never attempted the two at the same time, because it is a genuinely bad idea. Hitting a Main battle tank with a rocket is genuinely difficult at 200 yards, in a kneeling position with no additional factors. Combat stress makes it more difficult and rolling seas makes it infinitely moreso... basically same odds as hitting a flying helicopter (don't believe hollywood, unless it's taking off or landing it's NOT GOING TO HAPPEN) at full speed. Even if the ship is huge, an effective kill shot is going to be relatively small area (20 square meters or so), not to mention the fact that ransoming the crew requires you not sink the ship. While many of these pirates do carry rpgs, I have yet to read about a ship being rocketed.

Also, in response to an earlier post regarding the differences between pirates and terrorists: kidnapping and extortion are comon weapons in the terrorist arsenal, as are drug trafficking and extortion. Add in the recent surge of fundamentalist islamic revolutionaries in and about the Somalian sphere of influence and it's not too hard to imagine that at least some of these pirates have economic or idealogical ties to terrorists. So, as far as I'm concerned, the response of an individual or a government should be the same: no deals, no talking; mess around with the USA and get hurt where you live.
You don't like it? Move to France, commie.

 

[David Armstrong]

You said the loss of cargo and pollution... NOT ME!

Don't know why this is so hard to understand. The loss of cargo, etc. would not be from the crew blowing up the ship (your idea), it would come from the fighting, with the pirates doing the destruction.

To breech the hull is to "DESTROY THE VESSEL"... for the most part...

Many hulls are breeched without destroying the vessel.

Have you ever fired any gun from a bucking vessel?

Yes.

These pirates are in rough wake created seas just approaching let alone trying to flee a defensive crew! They ain't at the fire ready on approach. They are at the forced boarding ready on approach... send them a bunch of love notes written on lead postage stamps and watch them run like cockroaches in the lights!

No, they are not in a rough wake, they are at the fire ready during approach, and they have been under fire before, so again, a lot of assumptions without anything to really support them.

Offensive defense as stated is the only acceptable way to handle pirate/terrorists on the high seas! Always has been!

It seems a large number of professionals in the field disagree with that assessment.

Mr.Armstrong, I am sure you do not have what it would take to traverse the high seas in a pleasure vessel let alone command or own a commercial vessel in dangerous waters. You are not in the required capacity of this realm. It takes a survivalist mindset of all degrees to handle this.

Yawn. I am sure you haven't the faintest idea what you are talking about when you make such comments, particularly when it comes to my cpacity. But again, you don't have to take my word for it, the professionals in that business are virtually all in agreement with me and against what you propose. That is fairly indicative of who has the correct mindset to handle this.

What about when these insurance companies start refusing renewal of policy?

Doesn't happen. Th insurance of commercial cargo vessels is not at all like you homeowners insurance.

 

[David Armstrong]

ummm... where to begin here... have you ever ridden in a zodiac in stage 3 seas? have you ever fired a shoulder fired rocket?

They don't attack in stage 3 seas, and yes, I've fired many a shoulder-fired rocket, including RPGs.

Even if the ship is huge, an effective kill shot is going to be relatively small area (20 square meters or so)

Depends on how you define a kill shot. The area that is vulnerable can be as much a 700 meters by 100 meters.

not to mention the fact that ransoming the crew requires you not sink the ship. While many of these pirates do carry rpgs, I have yet to read about a ship being rocketed.

Think that the ships crew not shooting at the pirates has just a little bit to do with that?

 

[hogdogs]

An rpg that doesn't sink the boat is a failed shot.

Mr.Armstrong I do apologize for assuming your lack of previous maritime experience.
But these shippers do not have their crew's safety in mind. Just the bottom dollar.

These approaching pirates are on a lurching boat and at high speed. They are never on smooth water. I already quantified this by stating wake and ship speed.

Kill shot on a vessel is not just a hit. It must fully destroy the vessel or at minimum render it non-mobile or uncontrollable forcing it to come to a near stop. I am not experienced with RPG but I thought they explode upon impact of a solid material... They aren't likely to pierce the hull then detonate inside. If I am correct this means it is not likely to get to the powerplant. Into the wheel house would be very destructive I concede.
I do hold fast to the crew defending them self and be danged if it takes an extra 2 hours entering a port to declare the ships defensive armaments. This is about the life and liberty of law abiding citizens... NOT CARGO OR VESSELS!!!
And you just keep believing that the insurance company will ALWAYS pay ransom claims and NEVER refuse to renew policies! Lemme know how that works out for ya... The fact that they are only in business to make money says to the lay person that there is a bottom in that cash barrel...
But to heck with the boat, cargo, and money! Allow the crews to legally protect them selves. They don't pay enuff to subject yourself to the risk
Brent

 

[David Armstrong]

An rpg that doesn't sink the boat is a failed shot.

No it is not. An RPG round that disables the ship can work. An RPG round that blows up some highly volatile material and starts the ship burning is not a failed shot. There are a lot of problems that do not involve sinking the ship.

But these shippers do not have their crew's safety in mind. Just the bottom dollar.

Keeping crews safe is a part of that bottom dollar.

These approaching pirates are on a lurching boat and at high speed. They are never on smooth water. I already quantified this by stating wake and ship speed.

But the pirates don't always lurch around at high speed in the wake of the ship. They can pull alongside. They can be at the front. You seem to be assuming there is only one angle of attack and only one method of attack., which is not correct. Note that our Coast Guard and Navy don't seem to have much trouble getting rounds onto much smaller and faster ships on a regular basis.

I am not experienced with RPG but I thought they explode upon impact of a solid material... They aren't likely to pierce the hull then detonate inside.

An RPG can work its way through light armor. It will blow up assorted physical structures and penetrate buildings. A ships hull may or may not cause it much trouble, depending on distance and other factors. And of course the pirates can be equipped with much more than RPGs.

This is about the life and liberty of law abiding citizens... NOT CARGO OR VESSELS!!!

I'm not sure why some people seem to think that getting into a fight helps people stay alive. If you are dead you do not have life, and I'm not sure how much liberty is available inside a coffin. Would you care to hazard a guess how many hostages the Somali pirates have killed in the last 2 years? And of course it is about Cargo and Vessels. That is usually the main reason for the piracy, the ransoms for the crews is just a little extra on the side.

And you just keep believing that the insurance company will ALWAYS pay ransom claims and NEVER refuse to renew policies!

Piracy on the high seas has been going on for centuries, and the insurance companies are still writing policies. I doubt this little burst of activity is going to do much to change that.

The fact that they are only in business to make money says to the lay person that there is a bottom in that cash barrel.

LOL!! I sometimes wonder if people have taken even the slightest bit of effort to find out the facts behind some if these things. Yes, there is a bottom to the barrel, but we aren't even close to starting to think about the bottom. In spite of the recent media attention, piracy is still an extremely rare event for commercial shipping, and even with recent payouts the maritime insurance business is making LOTS of money. In fact, they are doing so good that recent maritime insurance rates have gone DOWN!

But to heck with the boat, cargo, and money! Allow the crews to legally protect them selves. They don't pay enuff to subject yourself to the risk

So increasing the risk to the crews will make things better? I think not.

 

[Creature]

Got to agree with David Armstrong here on every point.

A RPG is not designed to sink ships. Exocet and harpoon missiles are. An RPG was designed to defeat lightly armorered vehicles. The hull of a ship is no barrier for an RPG...unless your on a WW2-rea battleship. A RPG can cause moderate damage depending on the model, but it will almost never sink a ship that is in Material Condition Yoke or better.

As for shipping companies that are not concerned for the crew, I can tell you that any shipping company that doesn't care for it's crew isn't long for staying in business. Seamen and merchant marines are not stupid. Word gets around just like in any other business. And shipping is obviously a business with a very small community of sea-going employees.

 

[skydiver3346]

How to defend against Pirates...

Well, Somalia is a country in turmoil, etc., so any suggestion of the government (which is actually a number of warlords, etc) working to prevent pirates from their takeovers is ridculous. They actually encourage piracy and are getting to be millionaires out of this. The Pirates are considered "heros" in Somalia as a recent news video I just watched was showing.
No, the bottom line to prevent these incidents is this:
Unless you are in a merchant ship that is carrying Liquid Petroleum Gas, Crude Oil and/or other explosive cargo, each ship should should defend itself and let it be known to the world, it will do so. For the ships which are carrying explosive type cargo, they should get a military type escort as it makes sense (for obvious reasons, it is too risky to shoot back and forth at those carriers). For the hundreds of other merchant ships who go through these waters, their crews should be throughly trained on defensive weapons such as pistols, shotguns and maybe some well placed (around the ship) Browning .50 caliber MGs. When these pirate "fast boats" get to close, warn them with bull horns. If they continue to approach the ship, fire warning shots over their bow, letting them know their intentions to defend the ship. If the pirates continue to close the gap and/or fire on merchant ship, ELIMINATE THE THREAT instantly. Not many of those "fast boats" could withstand .50 cal rounds and continue onward.
I truly believe that after this is done, that there will be a lot less boardings by pirates in the future (if at all). Fight fire with fire. If not, one of these days the pirates will kill all of the seamen when the ransom is not paid, or something goes wrong in the takeover, etc.
That is just my opinion on how to "fix" this mess.

 

[jamiejaf]

...with a Browning M2 mounted on the deck.

 

[Tennessee Gentleman]

Interesting Article on this subject: http://features.csmonitor.com/globalnews/2009/04/08/to-stop-pirates-do-ships-need-firepower/

One of the concerns is if the ship's crews are armed and fight back then the pirates may just up the ante and use heavier weapons fired from farther away. The Pirates apparently have the money and could probably purchase bigger vessels and arms. However, the one crew DID fight back and threw off the pirates. I also read that some cruise ships are using some type of directed energy weapons (and speed) to try and repel these pirates

IMHO the bases of these pirates need to be ID'ed and then dealt with militarily if possible. I think the Marines did it once and wrote a song about it. But I know that it is hard to patrol such areas and more so than people think.

 

[JohnH1963]

The M2 has a maximum effective range of 2000 meters or about 1.25 miles. An RPG has an effective range of 500 meters. An AK47 400 meters.

A pintal mounted M2 with tracers could easily rain down a few hundred rounds and easily sink one of those small boats before they come into range. There are also other variants such as the Bushmaster.

There are many advanced systems out there where the M2 can be operated automatically and quickly zero in on the target and neutralize it.

I cant think of any craft the pirates operate that would survive a hail of bullets from an M2. Even if the craft did survive, the pirates would be hunkered down. The pirates do not have access to any weapons with the range of an M2.

The best solution at the end of the day is this...a rifle and a pistol...

Oh, one small fact about the RPG. There is a significant backblast and its use aboard a smallboat would be dangerous. The smallboat bobbing up and down would also make it difficult for the shooter.

Notice how the man behind the RPG is killed. He does not get up after the incident. The man sitting directly below the RPG is wounded to the point where he is cowering on the ground holding his head apparently severely injured.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yscc5x7-dAM

 

[David Armstrong]

The pirates do not have access to any weapons with the range of an M2.

Being as they are in Somalia, they have accesss to many weapons with the range of an M2, including M2s of their own. There are plenty of recoiless rifles, portable anti-tank and anti-aircraft guns, assorted Surface to Air missiles, TOW anti-tank missles, etc. What some folks either forgot or don't know is that the U.S. was the major supplier of weapons to Somalia back in the 1980s when they were our friends, and before that Russia gave them huge amounts of weapons including tanks.

 

[Hook686]

I avoid areas that have a reported high level of traffic by terrorist and pirates.

 

[amprecon]

I am having trouble understanding the prolonged intricate dialogue in the media in regard to a simple question. My answer is for Americans to cowboy up for a change. Nobody can protect yourself better than yourself. It makes me sick to hear people offering the advise to cower in a corner and wait until the cavalry arrives.
Step one, have a weapon, step two, use that weapon to protect yourself and your shipmates.
Good lord I hate lawyers, make you second guess the legality of living.

 

[Ian0351]

IMHO the bases of these pirates need to be ID'ed and then dealt with militarily if possible. I think the Marines did it once and wrote a song about it.

Well said sir. That's also how Marine Officers acquired the fancy sword they wear to this day.

Oh, one small fact about the RPG. There is a significant backblast and its use aboard a smallboat would be dangerous. The smallboat bobbing up and down would also make it difficult for the shooter.

FWIW the American "equivalent" of the RPG (actually superior to the RPG) has a back blast of 50 meters for the propellant and 85 meters for debris, and they are very hard to aim while moving.

Also, I think it bears repeating that the best way to defend against piracy is not to travel in areas frequented by pirates. Especially, for the moment, the
Gulf of Aden.

 

[David Armstrong]

Step one, have a weapon, step two, use that weapon to protect yourself and your shipmates.

How about protecting your shipmates by not starting a fight where they will get hurt or killed? Folks, I appreciate fighting when it is likely to help the situation, but it seems sort of silly to do it when it is likely to make it worse. Again, there is a reason that most all the experts in the field give the same advise, and that advise is that arming the crews will make things worse, not better.

 

[Naterstein]

Hire Ninjas.

 

[Hondo11]

At this point in time, there is no way the Captain will come out of this alive except if the ransom is paid. If the ransom is paid, then that will send a message to terrorists, hijackers and pirates that all you have to do is take an American hostage and you will eventually get what you want.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/africa/04/12/somalia.pirates/index.html
Captain is safe and 3 out of the 4 pirates are dead.


While everyone was wringing their hands and saying, "Why aren't they doing anything?".....well, they were doing something.

 

[JohnH1963]

I have never fired a weapon aboard a ship. I wonder how accuracy would fly out the window with the ship constantly moving up and down. Automatic weapons would probably be the best tool on board one of these ships.

Well, this was the best possible outcome. The pirates getting killed and the Captain being freed. However, look at how the Captain did it. He kept resisting. He jumped into the Indian Ocean twice. After the first time, automatic weapons were fired. Then he did it a second time despite the risk of certain death.

This is how to behave when you are captured. If he had simply sit in the corner and let the pirates do their business then that would have only encouraged more pirate attacks.

No sir, the government did nothing in this instance. "They" did not do anything. It was one brave Captain and a crew who decided to intervene and not let these pirates get away with it yet again.

I do not support the conventional advice of waiting it out patiently with your captors or raising the flag of surrender. That doesnt work, it never worked. The Captain did something, the crew did something...it had nothing to do with the Navy.

The military teaches their soldiers well. Survive, evade, resist, escape...thats how everyone should think when confronted with these types of situations. Dont let yourself become a victim.

 

[Creature]

I have never fired a weapon aboard a ship. I wonder how accuracy would fly out the window with the ship constantly moving up and down. Automatic weapons would probably be the best tool on board one of these ships.

I have....and accuracy is not as nearly as adversely affected as one might expect. While pin-point accuracy and tight groupings are more difficult to achieve, rolling dips and swells are much easier to compensate for than say the inconsistent bumping and jerking one encounters while onboard a helicopter.

 

[bamafan4life]

ill just bring peter pan to defend my self from pirates lol everything else the second amendment and 80 million nra members shall handle.