How do you defend yourself against pirates and terrorists?

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I saw a recent interview where a shipping exec was asked why they do not arm the crews. He gave a (not unexpected) half truth of "due to international and local laws where the ship travels". Anyone who did not know better, would take that to mean that they are not allowed to arm their crews. But that is not so at all! The real truth is, if they do arm them, then they have more hoops and red tape to jump through when going into and out of ports and this slows their process down some.

So... the TRUE answer why they do not arm their crews is...

We value less red tape in our operations than the risk of safety of the crews.

Absolutely despicable.
 
Hi David,

Resisting and going on the offensive may mean you never return to your family and indeed die a certain death. It may mean you may be placed into a jail cell or be wounded to the point where a limb may have to be cut off.

However, one thing is for certain, others will be able to live and the persons who commit such crimes will be offered a deterence from ever doing something like this again.

If the hijackers knew they would encounter resistance from the passengers or the pilots, then maybe they wouldnt have hijacked the aircraft on 9/11. Maybe the planes wouldnt have reached their intended targets. If burglars or crooks know that they would encounter an armed person in their acts of thievery, then maybe there would be less stealing....

In reading American history, you learn that not everyone simply stood by to become victims. I am very happy for those who sacrificed themselves throughout American history so that others could live free.

If I died at the hands of a terrorist or pirate after resisting, then my son would be proud that his Dad did the patriotic thing...the right thing.

Having a free society means that some must make sacrifices. Therefore, if it came down to it, I would do what I had to do to stop such things from happening.

Its not about a ship full of cargo, its not about me coming home to my family...its about freedom. If the ship has to sink, if I have to die then thats a small price to pay so others can live and sail the sea in freedom.

I hope that this crew's actions set an example for all. Its better to resist and make a statement to all those that want to commit such acts of terrorism and outright hooliganism. Its not the easy thing to do, but its the right thing to do.
 
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JOHNH, Great post... The saying... "all gave some while some gave all" comes to heart! I have many relatives buried on foreign soil and shark poop in pearl harbor givin their lives to not only our freedom but the freedom of other nation's citizens so ultimately we remained free. I don't want to die a hero but I refuse to die on my knees! I know of one ol' timer radio operator who never went on a single freighter trip without his Gen 1 Colt 1911. He retired with full honors from the shipper at over 80 and never had a write up in his company file. He would have gladly taken a dismissal for what he would have called justified use of the pistol. But what did he know he was just a radio man on WWII bombers.
Brent
 
I think the fact that a captain can still marry aboard his vessel and hold on board gambling and prostitution as well as defend with any required force against mutiny and piracy, my statement wasn't far off base
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Fair enough... I was just trying to mess with ya a little bit :D

As far as the USCG being called to duty over there... I am not entirely happy that the Coast Guard ever got the power to do more than GUARD THE COAST OF THE USofA... Heck they are not even DoD...
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The CG had that authority since it's inception. And the fact that we are not DOD gives us more lee-way than the Navy. They are a combat-oriented organization. Combat, as in war. We are not at war with the pirates as the US has not declared such.

On the other hand, one of the CG's primary duties (especially since 9/11 and DHS inception) is law enforcement/enforcement of laws and treaties on the high seas and US territorial waters.

When a similar situation transpires on land, do we call in the Army or Marines? No. We let the law enforcement agencies handle it (local, state, federal). When a situation such as this transpires in a maritime environment, the CG should be taking the lead, not the Navy (IMO). The CG is the premier maritime law enforcement agency in the world. Most of our allies who have a similar service call upon the USCG to train and advise their personnel at all levels. Happens many many times each year. Why do they ask for the CG's advice and expertise? Because we're the experts.

A bit of U.S. Code which defines our LE duties;

14-USC-2
The Coast Guard shall enforce or assist in the enforcement of all applicable Federal laws on, under, and over the high seas and waters subject to the jurisdiction of the United States; shall engage in maritime air surveillance or interdiction to enforce or assist in the enforcement of the laws of the United States; shall administer laws and promulgate and enforce regulations for the promotion of safety of life and property on and under the high seas and waters subject to the jurisdiction of the United States covering all matters not specifically delegated by law to some other executive department...
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14-USC-89
The Coast Guard may make inquiries, examinations, inspections, searches, seizures, and arrests upon the high seas and waters over which the United States has jurisdiction, for the prevention, detection, and suppression of violations of laws of the United States.

For such purposes, commissioned, warrant, and petty officers may at any time go on board of any vessel subject to the jurisdiction, or to the operation of any law, of the United States, address inquiries to those on board, examine the ship's documents and papers, and examine, inspect, and search the vessel and use all necessary force to compel compliance...
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If I were to see pirates coming at me, I'd simply order my private yellow submarine to dive and dive quickly.

they'd have a hard time catching me 20,000 leagues under the sea.
 
I don't understand what's the matter with the Somali pirates. IIRC the photos, it's like a bunch of savages on inflatible gum boats with AKs attacking the ships. I've seen the boats floating side by side with these captured ships. Now, can somebody explain how do they climb up to the merchant wessel deck looming some 5 meters above them without the merchant's crew cooperating?

Another thing I don't understand: looks like some two machine gun crews properly equipped would easily repel the attacking pirates. Can't imagine their Zodiac boats afloat when pierced by bullets. Also the crew makes a nice target from upside. Heck I'd dare to say that any halfdecet shot armed with a selfloading carbine would wreck the pirate boat easily since the big ship won't rock that much compared to the small speedboats, and then the fire from the larger ship must be way more accurate.

Finally, the pirate bases are well known. They were named in the press already. So why not to pay a visit and raze the place?

Concerning the captured captain - muslims react pretty well to a counter captures. There is a story about a Russian contingent on a visit in Chechnya during czar period.
The muslims captured one officer and demanded a ransom. The commander ordered all the messengers to be hung leaving only one alive. Then he moved his troops to a home village of the kidnappers. He ordered his men to arrest all men including the priest and then sent the lone surviving messenger back with an ultimatum: the officer wil be returned immediatelly or all the elders of the village and the priests will die.
Now his officer was returned in some 2 hours time with all respect complete with his horse.
 
Having a free society means that some must make sacrifices. Therefore, if it came down to it, I would do what I had to do to stop such things from happening.
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damn right. It isn't machissmo, it's principles and values. Which, for the record, is why we speak English without an accent in this country (not colony).

Another thing I don't understand: looks like some two machine gun crews properly equipped would easily repel the attacking pirates.
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from a former USMC zodiac coxswain: you'd be surprised what talented and enterprising men can do with a little rubber boat and a couple of balls.

and FWIW, this isn't a coast guard responsibility, it's a Marine Corps responsibility. We knew how to deal with piracy on the Barbary coast and we know how to deal with it now... if only the suits in Washington would let the pros do their jobs my brothers in green would show these lowlifes how deadly a zodiac can be!
 
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I would never hate on the Coast Guard nor the coasties that serve! I am against the imposition that politicians have used by extending their duty. They were well busy enuff with the original duty. Viet Nam did not need the USCG but they were there too. The navy goes around the world kickin' butt as Navies do but the USCG by name is to guard the coast of this nation...

Brent
 
I dont understand why the crews of these ships cannot be at least armed with pistols or have a specifically trained and licensed private security force on board...lets say a few Blackwater guys armed with assault rifles.

At this point in time, there is no way the Captain will come out of this alive except if the ransom is paid. If the ransom is paid, then that will send a message to terrorists, hijackers and pirates that all you have to do is take an American hostage and you will eventually get what you want.

The only solution at this point is either armed intervention or letting them sit until they starve. Any attempt to pay the ransom will result in increased future hijackings and more "human shields".
 
Every ship should have an arms locker with 10-20 shot guns and 10-20 mini-14's and a gob of ammo. A few should be loaded and put to sentries as soon as away from the protection of their last port to call. the officer charged with ship security and awake at the hour should have the key to the locker at his ready. Pistols should also be at the ships use but individuals should, IMHO, be allowed to bring their own.
Brent
 
David, No one is suggesting these crew members blow up their own boats...
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OK, I didn't suggest it either, so I'm not sure where that comes from.
And an RPG is going to be grossly inaccurate if fired from a 20 something foot open craft that is trying to get on plane to escape the barrage of defensive gunfire from an armed crew.
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That is a rather interesting assumption with little or nothing to support it.
What I cannot fathom is any one who reads the tactics and training section of a fine forum such as TFL expecting high seas sailors in known dangerous waters being unarmed and defenseless against armed assault and risk of violent death at the hands of pirates...
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Just as I cannot fathom folks who read the T&T section of a forum such as TFL who think they know better than the professionals in the business, who almost unanimously say arming crews will generally be a bad idea. In fact, it is such a bad idea that the companies that insure the ships charge a HIGHER premium if the crew is armed.
Maybe guns should be banned from US citizens as we are in a much safer place and don't need the right to defend our selves!
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Not sure what that has to do with fighting pirates.
 
However, one thing is for certain, others will be able to live and the persons who commit such crimes will be offered a deterence from ever doing something like this again.
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That is far from certain, it is not even likely.
If the hijackers knew they would encounter resistance from the passengers or the pilots, then maybe they wouldnt have hijacked the aircraft on 9/11. Maybe the planes wouldnt have reached their intended targets. If burglars or crooks know that they would encounter an armed person in their acts of thievery, then maybe there would be less stealing....
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If, maybe, maybe, if...how about some facts instead of guesses? I've seen very little evidence to suggest that previous failures on the part of others has had any significant deterrent value on the part of those who have followed them. If anything it usually means the violence factor is escalated, not that the incidents stop.
If the ship has to sink, if I have to die then thats a small price to pay so others can live and sail the sea in freedom.
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But sinking the ship and dieing will not do much of anything to help others live and sail the sea in freedom.

Everybody needs to re-read Vanya's post #20.
 
You asked for it...
So your view is that it is better that thousands of tons of food be destroyed, or that millions of barrels of oil pollute the water and air, untold dozens or hundrfeds of good, hard-working people die, etc. rather than some insurance company make a payment? Wow.
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Above is why I said...
No one is suggesting these crew members blow up their own boats...
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It ain't like these crews are going to destroy the tons of food or pollute the oceans and shores with crude oil...
But I guess you allude to the pirate destroying the ship in battle...???
And an RPG is going to be grossly inaccurate if fired from a 20 something foot open craft that is trying to get on plane to escape the barrage of defensive gunfire from an armed crew.
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That is a rather interesting assumption with little or nothing to support it.
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Obviously you never tried to shoot clay birds off the back of a 23 foot fiberglass boat boat at 1-3 knots in one to 2 foot seas let alone 4-6 foot swells? Now try the same thing as the boat accelerates! And it is far easier at the transom with a thigh under the gunnel than forward facing with a 2 handed over the shoulder held RPG! Some of us have done extreme things with less than stellar results!
BTW we soaked cases of clays in Menhaden oil and shot them as "chum" in our trolling pattern... Noise and visual attraction of the clays splattering on the surface were superior to just piddling the oil on the surface. When we drug our baits thru the residue we got great hits...
We also dropped catfood cans but would toss them up to be shot too... better spread! But anyway the point is we had under 5 or 10 percent hit ratio when the seas were over 2 foot or if the "cap'n" decided to goose the throttle.
Brent
 
It ain't like these crews are going to destroy the tons of food or pollute the oceans and shores with crude oil...
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Right, which is why suggesting they would is rather silly, IMO.
But I guess you allude to the pirate destroying the ship in battle...???
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Don't even have to destroy the ship to breech the hull, or to start a fire, etc.
Obviously you never tried to shoot clay birds off the back of a 23 foot fiberglass boat boat at 1-3 knots in one to 2 foot seas let alone 4-6 foot swells?
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I really shouldn't even have to point this out, but shooting clays has almost nothing in common with hitting a ship bigger than two football fields.
 
Some years ago I had a large sail boat and traveled the pacific. I wanted to go to Thailand and would have to cross the Straits of Malacca, which has been know for a hundred years for pirates.

I was able to purchase a 105 recoiless rifle, 100 rounds of ammo, and solid mount for it. Unfortunately I did not make that trip, and stayed in the south pacific (women again. :barf:), but I often still fantasize about what would have happened with a pirate and this 73' sail boat when they met.

There is no defense that is ever better than a strong offense.

I am positive if the seal teams that are present were not being micro managed by these pencil necked geaks in DC, the problem would be over.

Even my unprofessional self can see how a small underwater charge to pop a hole in the boat, would make sorting out the pirates pretty easy when the boat sinks.

Hooking a 1/4" cable to the bow and towing them away would be another answer.

A discreet application of some colorless/orderless gas would be another non-lethal solution.
 
It ain't like these crews are going to destroy the tons of food or pollute the oceans and shores with crude oil...
Right, which is why suggesting they would is rather silly, IMO.
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You said the loss of cargo and pollution... NOT ME!
But I guess you allude to the pirate destroying the ship in battle...???
Don't even have to destroy the ship to breech the hull, or to start a fire, etc.
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To breech the hull is to "DESTROY THE VESSEL"... for the most part...
Obviously you never tried to shoot clay birds off the back of a 23 foot fiberglass boat boat at 1-3 knots in one to 2 foot seas let alone 4-6 foot swells?
I really shouldn't even have to point this out, but shooting clays has almost nothing in common with hitting a ship bigger than two football fields.
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Have you ever fired any gun from a bucking vessel?
Have you ever tried to accurately place a top water lure 150 feet from the bow at 6 knots? To a weed line that is several football fields long? what is the accurate range of an RPG? From a bucking vessel?
Keep in mind the wake from a 15-20 knot ship is 4-6 foot at minimum (never seen it so small) and more like 6-8 foot or more? These ships lumber along at 15-20 knots in a shipping channel and have no steerage at under 6-10 knots. The fastest 23 foot 'glass center console I fished on had well tuned twin 150 horse power outboards and would run a wide open low fuel no supplies max speed on high octane 53 knots FLAT OUT! we never caught up to a ship a couple miles away to fish their prop wash and we did try. The few we came alongside we were never closer than a quarter mile due to wake created swells and fear of being shot as pirates (it is illegal to approach too close to a ship in american waters... a cruise vessel cannot take on a passenger or supply from ANY vessel) were running 25-30 knots give or take....
These pirates are in rough wake created seas just approaching let alone trying to flee a defensive crew! They ain't at the fire ready on approach. They are at the forced boarding ready on approach... send them a bunch of love notes written on lead postage stamps and watch them run like cockroaches in the lights!
Offensive defense as stated is the only acceptable way to handle pirate/terrorists on the high seas! Always has been!
Many ships have been lost battling pirates but countless others were left alone due to the same offensive technique.
Mr.Armstrong, I am sure you do not have what it would take to traverse the high seas in a pleasure vessel let alone command or own a commercial vessel in dangerous waters. You are not in the required capacity of this realm. It takes a survivalist mindset of all degrees to handle this.
A lucky shot I am ready to soak up so long as I did everything I could to defend! But to have violent armed desperate thugs awaiting my boss to pay them off is not in my capacity.
What about when these insurance companies start refusing renewal of policy? One high dollar robbery of your home could cause a refusal of renewal. One 30,000 dollar burglary caused my electrical employer to be refused after 17 years without a single claim to nationwide. What we did was took turns sleeping in the "job trailer" that was robbed fully armed until we finished that job. 60 days total... 30 each we spent the night alone with a .44 revolver, SKS and 12 gauge pump next to the cot. I had no investment nor insurance protection... Just loyalty to the boss who takes care of me and provides a means for me to earn a living.
Rant squelched... Others can carry on!
Brent
 
I dont see why they can't just give the shippers a few M4s, M1As, and shotguns.
It's not like one ship crew is going to bring down an entire country with just small arms.
 
Start with their "homeland", their safe harbors, destroy them. Let them live off their boats. How long do you think it will be, before they choose a different occupation.
 
Hirlau,.... Not freakin' long at all!!! :D Just to be fired on by each targeted vessel for a few tries and the piracy gig would be far too much risk versus reward ratio to be profitable to even the poorest terrorist!
Brent
 
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