Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
UncleEd said:
Thank you. I appreciate my votes for a no-compromise Board of Directors not being diluted by Fudds. It was especially thoughtful of you to quit prior to elections.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
How do you combat anti-gun argument fatigue??
- Thread starter Kimio
- Start date
Thank you. I appreciate my votes for a no-compromise Board of Directors not being diluted by Fudds. It was especially thoughtful of you to quit prior to elections.
We cannot even reach an agreement with many concerning validity of facts.
For instance I watched one Facebook argument offer the single premise that there have been 18 school shootings this year and then conclude that "something" had to be done.
When it was pointed out that 18 number was fictitious and each of the 18 "incidents" gone through the premise was dropped.
The conclusion, however, was not.
I've also "given in" to the argument and noted that I would agree to whatever draconian measures were called for as long as there was a clear sunset clause in there that the next innocent life lost to gun violence after said measures would invalidate all measures taken and revert back to current legal standards. Apparently everyone is perfectly aware that no measures would assure the "not one more life" standard being held up.
Combat fatigue? Just step away. Change tactics. Make arguments that at least amuse you. Right now my favorite tactics involve allowing others to decimate their own arguments by agreeing with key premises such as gun are inherently evil and no one should be allowed to own them including police and military.
For instance I watched one Facebook argument offer the single premise that there have been 18 school shootings this year and then conclude that "something" had to be done.
When it was pointed out that 18 number was fictitious and each of the 18 "incidents" gone through the premise was dropped.
The conclusion, however, was not.
I've also "given in" to the argument and noted that I would agree to whatever draconian measures were called for as long as there was a clear sunset clause in there that the next innocent life lost to gun violence after said measures would invalidate all measures taken and revert back to current legal standards. Apparently everyone is perfectly aware that no measures would assure the "not one more life" standard being held up.
Combat fatigue? Just step away. Change tactics. Make arguments that at least amuse you. Right now my favorite tactics involve allowing others to decimate their own arguments by agreeing with key premises such as gun are inherently evil and no one should be allowed to own them including police and military.
johnwilliamson062
Moderator
Facebook arguments don't affect anything. Just de-activate your account.
You can't win an emotional argument with logical arguments. In most cases just let it go. Politicians only care about getting re-elected. If your argument isn't affecting a politicians re-election you are simply wasting time.
You can't win an emotional argument with logical arguments. In most cases just let it go. Politicians only care about getting re-elected. If your argument isn't affecting a politicians re-election you are simply wasting time.
Educate the media.
We must write to members of the media and Congress or else the AR-15 and the so called "assault rifle" will be banned. For example, someone I am very familiar with, Andrew Ross Sorkin, wrote a column for the NYT today suggesting that credit card companies (banks) refuse to allow people charging the purchase of AR-15s, etc. He lives in NYC and probably has never fired a rife. Write these people but use concise, well thought out words.
We must write to members of the media and Congress or else the AR-15 and the so called "assault rifle" will be banned. For example, someone I am very familiar with, Andrew Ross Sorkin, wrote a column for the NYT today suggesting that credit card companies (banks) refuse to allow people charging the purchase of AR-15s, etc. He lives in NYC and probably has never fired a rife. Write these people but use concise, well thought out words.
We must write to members of the media and Congress or else the AR-15 and the so called "assault rifle" will be banned. For example, someone I am very familiar with, Andrew Ross Sorkin, wrote a column for the NYT today suggesting that credit card companies (banks) refuse to allow people charging the purchase of AR-15s, etc. He lives in NYC and probably has never fired a rife. Write these people but use concise, well thought out words.
If you want to write these kinds of people, that's your call but to me it is a complete waste of time. I'd rather do something productive like sort my sock drawer...
After decades of debating anti-gunners i gave it up. Don't think its possible for a dedicated anti-gunner to change his mind. i soon felt more relaxed had time for more important stuff.
Debating anti-gunners is time consuming and is akin to wrestling a big dirty boar hog in his pen. You get covered with hog poop and crud: Meanwhile the hog loves it.
Debating anti-gunners is time consuming and is akin to wrestling a big dirty boar hog in his pen. You get covered with hog poop and crud: Meanwhile the hog loves it.
thallub said:After decades of debating anti-gunners i gave it up. Don't think its possible for a dedicated anti-gunner to change his mind.
Changing the mind of the person on the other side is relatively rare and generally not a realistic goal. I see two realistic goals in arguing these points with people of a contrary opinion.
1. Where the forum is public, you will not convince the other advocate, but you may sway those listening. If you even shift a listener's inclination on an issue, that's a good result.
2. You may actually find out what they really think. Many people will tell you what they really think only after a bit of prodding. They often begin with what they think they are supposed to think.
I've had a number of conversations in social settings, many of them with women, in which really running a point to ground isn't appropriate. Offering just a few gentle bits of contrary information has routinely prompted a retreat to something like "I don't really care about all that - I just don't like guns and would rather people didn't have them".
As I told a lady in church, privacy, safety, fitness-Christianity-are not things you achieve, they are things you PRACTICE.
I agree our opponents are very narrow minded, bigoted, snobbish, arrogant and conceited, think we all morons, bigots, knuckle draggers, "bitter clingers", "deplorables". All the more reason to keep up the fight. Take a non gunner shooting. Do they like do-go after the young.
I agree our opponents are very narrow minded, bigoted, snobbish, arrogant and conceited, think we all morons, bigots, knuckle draggers, "bitter clingers", "deplorables". All the more reason to keep up the fight. Take a non gunner shooting. Do they like do-go after the young.
Like the OP I am worn out arguing with my critical thinking, logic, problem solving experience, and real stats backing up my point of view and reality
you can not and never will change the mind of some citizen who is mostly emotional driven...
At noon today I had to turn off TV FOX news and escape to my hobby shop...sounded to me like even the 2nd Amendment pro gun commentators were acquiescing to the WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING mantra....
Lock down all schools tighter than a TSA airport (where I can still get in with a gun of I want to) is about the only rational...albeit costly, solution
you can not and never will change the mind of some citizen who is mostly emotional driven...
At noon today I had to turn off TV FOX news and escape to my hobby shop...sounded to me like even the 2nd Amendment pro gun commentators were acquiescing to the WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING mantra....
Lock down all schools tighter than a TSA airport (where I can still get in with a gun of I want to) is about the only rational...albeit costly, solution
Fredvon4 said:Lock down all schools tighter than a TSA airport (where I can still get in with a gun of I want to) is about the only rational...albeit costly, solution.
I dissent. School shootings are rare. Transforming a school from a comfortable and open place in which children learning is the focus of the place to a place in which security theater dominates would be an error. Habituating children to obedience of bureaucracy probably isn't great for society either.
It would be nice if there were a few people around the school who carried or had access to a carbine so they could have better options than soaking up a few bullets before the killer moves on.
Zukiphile
I actually agree...from a point of view that we kill so many in the shower, trampoline, pool, or car crash..... the relative loss of kids lives to school shootings.... in context is rare and low count
BUT just saying that makes me a very NON PC and hateful person...even if the stats prove me out
I personally think there is a mode to get to 80% security... but it excessive in my mind from a cost risk benefit POV
DO Nothing BUT enforce all current law seems rational to me
An total locked down school is almost as excessive a imposition to all law abiding citizens as any of the propose increased in gun control....more fees, more regulation, more taxes, more inconvenience, for actually little added security or life saving
Wear a helmet in the shower or else!!! Dam...we can save 2300 lives this year alone!
I actually agree...from a point of view that we kill so many in the shower, trampoline, pool, or car crash..... the relative loss of kids lives to school shootings.... in context is rare and low count
BUT just saying that makes me a very NON PC and hateful person...even if the stats prove me out
I personally think there is a mode to get to 80% security... but it excessive in my mind from a cost risk benefit POV
DO Nothing BUT enforce all current law seems rational to me
An total locked down school is almost as excessive a imposition to all law abiding citizens as any of the propose increased in gun control....more fees, more regulation, more taxes, more inconvenience, for actually little added security or life saving
Wear a helmet in the shower or else!!! Dam...we can save 2300 lives this year alone!
To clarify. I realize I won’t win fights against someone who is hardcore against guns. That debate is pointless and serves no real purpose other than to exasperate both parties involved in the debate.
I think what I’m getting tired of is have to constantly restate/correct the misinformation and many times outright lies that he’s spewed and gobbled up by the masses. Sometimes (rarely) I get lucky and the individual can at least agree to disagree with me or sees it from another perspective. Many times however, it’s the same blustering and blubbering about how something needs to be done.
I’ve tried changing tactics as of late by turning their own questions back into them with mixed results. Asking them “okay, so we want better background checks. What do you propose?” And I explain what the current system is like. They say greater databases of information and I ask “should doctors be allowed to inform police when you are prescribed anti-depressents or some other medication designed to treat mental ailments?”.
My favorite are the ones who are anti cop this, anti police that, the police are shooting innocents! I tend to ask “okay, so you want gun violence, as the news likes to call it to go down. You say this is a job for police, yet at the same time you say police are evil or too trigger happy. How does giving them more power help our current situation. If not the police, who do you suggest should come to our aid when you’re getting mugged, raped, etc.”
I’ve had these discussions time and time and again and sometimes they work, sometimes they don’t. It’s just exhausting to see the constant stream of BS that gets spewed day in and day out. It’ll never end, I understand that, however, I find it’s fatiguing just hearing about it these days.
Even if I’m not actively participating, I can’t help but feel tired as I shake my head at the people repeating the same sound bites and catch phrases spouted on the MSNN’s. Perhaps it is time to just shut down, disconnect and not even bother with counter arguing for a while. Let alone even seeing what is being said, perhaps a break every once in a while is a good thing.
I think what I’m getting tired of is have to constantly restate/correct the misinformation and many times outright lies that he’s spewed and gobbled up by the masses. Sometimes (rarely) I get lucky and the individual can at least agree to disagree with me or sees it from another perspective. Many times however, it’s the same blustering and blubbering about how something needs to be done.
I’ve tried changing tactics as of late by turning their own questions back into them with mixed results. Asking them “okay, so we want better background checks. What do you propose?” And I explain what the current system is like. They say greater databases of information and I ask “should doctors be allowed to inform police when you are prescribed anti-depressents or some other medication designed to treat mental ailments?”.
My favorite are the ones who are anti cop this, anti police that, the police are shooting innocents! I tend to ask “okay, so you want gun violence, as the news likes to call it to go down. You say this is a job for police, yet at the same time you say police are evil or too trigger happy. How does giving them more power help our current situation. If not the police, who do you suggest should come to our aid when you’re getting mugged, raped, etc.”
I’ve had these discussions time and time and again and sometimes they work, sometimes they don’t. It’s just exhausting to see the constant stream of BS that gets spewed day in and day out. It’ll never end, I understand that, however, I find it’s fatiguing just hearing about it these days.
Even if I’m not actively participating, I can’t help but feel tired as I shake my head at the people repeating the same sound bites and catch phrases spouted on the MSNN’s. Perhaps it is time to just shut down, disconnect and not even bother with counter arguing for a while. Let alone even seeing what is being said, perhaps a break every once in a while is a good thing.
kimio said:I’ve had these discussions time and time and again and sometimes they work, sometimes they don’t. It’s just exhausting to see the constant stream of BS that gets spewed day in and day out. It’ll never end, I understand that, however, I find it’s fatiguing just hearing about it these days.
Emphasis added.
It might help you to remember that the raging river of BS didn't start with the person to whom you may be speaking. A lot of people consume their news/infotainment and social media junk uncritically. A lot of people also talk for no good reason I can discern. When that talker is also an uncritical consumer, guess what you'll hear?
That doesn't necessarily mean they are bad people.
You might respond with "you can't fix stupid. You might be able to fix ignorant. Which are you???"
Ask them if they understand the concept of the Big Lie.
Ask them, if guns are evil, why do cops have them??
but, take a break, before burn out. Realize that the small minded people of the world are going to be small minded people, no matter what you do.
Trouble is, stupid people's votes count the same as everyone else's....and the number of stupid people doesn't seem to be going down. Rather the opposite.
or you might just simply correct their grammar, as too many don't realize that guns don't kill, guns are USED to kill. Show me the gun, that, without a human being involved, killed anyone...you can't. Neither can they.
Ask them to explain how when someone is shot, its the gun's fault, but when someone kills with a car, its the driver's fault. Not the car, not the car maker, the driver...
Ask them if they understand what a double standard is, and why its hypocritical...
Or just explain that their closed mind isn't worth your time to open....
Ask them if they understand the concept of the Big Lie.
Ask them, if guns are evil, why do cops have them??
but, take a break, before burn out. Realize that the small minded people of the world are going to be small minded people, no matter what you do.
Trouble is, stupid people's votes count the same as everyone else's....and the number of stupid people doesn't seem to be going down. Rather the opposite.
or you might just simply correct their grammar, as too many don't realize that guns don't kill, guns are USED to kill. Show me the gun, that, without a human being involved, killed anyone...you can't. Neither can they.
Ask them to explain how when someone is shot, its the gun's fault, but when someone kills with a car, its the driver's fault. Not the car, not the car maker, the driver...
Ask them if they understand what a double standard is, and why its hypocritical...
Or just explain that their closed mind isn't worth your time to open....
I really get incredibly tired of the incessant, never ending, unstated bias of Public Radio.
I’m paraphrasing here but when they are talking about the upcoming march on Washington they say thing like it ‘might get some progress made on this issue’ as though it’s obvious to everyone that more restrictions on guns is ‘progress’.
If you ever suggested to them allowing suppressors or doing away with ‘gun free zones’ or loosening the restrictions on concealed carry might be 'progress' I think they literally would not understand you, as though you were speaking Greek or you were a ‘flat earther’.
The phrase ‘common sense’ has been so perverted and twisted its definition has run away and is hiding out in some other part of the dictionary.
Also:
1. The ‘18 shootings this year’ has been refuted even in the Washington Post but I still hear it.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...1d91fcec3fe_story.html?utm_term=.43f03e43d50a
2. The claim that gun rights folk want mentally ill people to have guns because they reversed a policy that EVEN THE ACLU considered unfair.
3. The idea that the NRA contributes so much money they ‘own’ many of the politicians in Washington D.C.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/16/nra-money-isnt-why-gun-control-efforts-are-failing-commentary.html
4. The idea that the NRA is a terrorist organization.
5. One of the local radio stations in the Twin Cities, FM107.1 had Julia, the host of the ‘Lori and Julia’ show say about the shooting: "It's just the saddest thing ever. I hope, I hope we can do something cause this young man had a machine gun---and um that's not right."
6. The call for students to bring ‘8 ounce canned food items’ to throw at school shooters as a possible solution:
7. The idea that we are all the poorer for the CDC not being able to lobby for gun control. (Note they still CAN do the research if they wanted to.
8. The idea that it should be okay to sue a gun manufacturer if someone uses their guns illegally and that legislation to prevent this type of silliness constitutes ‘bowing to special interests’.
It really does get tiring.
I’m paraphrasing here but when they are talking about the upcoming march on Washington they say thing like it ‘might get some progress made on this issue’ as though it’s obvious to everyone that more restrictions on guns is ‘progress’.
If you ever suggested to them allowing suppressors or doing away with ‘gun free zones’ or loosening the restrictions on concealed carry might be 'progress' I think they literally would not understand you, as though you were speaking Greek or you were a ‘flat earther’.
The phrase ‘common sense’ has been so perverted and twisted its definition has run away and is hiding out in some other part of the dictionary.
Also:
1. The ‘18 shootings this year’ has been refuted even in the Washington Post but I still hear it.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...1d91fcec3fe_story.html?utm_term=.43f03e43d50a
2. The claim that gun rights folk want mentally ill people to have guns because they reversed a policy that EVEN THE ACLU considered unfair.
3. The idea that the NRA contributes so much money they ‘own’ many of the politicians in Washington D.C.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/16/nra-money-isnt-why-gun-control-efforts-are-failing-commentary.html
4. The idea that the NRA is a terrorist organization.
5. One of the local radio stations in the Twin Cities, FM107.1 had Julia, the host of the ‘Lori and Julia’ show say about the shooting: "It's just the saddest thing ever. I hope, I hope we can do something cause this young man had a machine gun---and um that's not right."
6. The call for students to bring ‘8 ounce canned food items’ to throw at school shooters as a possible solution:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ngs-loom-large-public-imagination/1063337001/One Alabama middle school in 2015 sent letters home to parents asking them to send children the following day with “a canned food item” weighing eight ounces.
7. The idea that we are all the poorer for the CDC not being able to lobby for gun control. (Note they still CAN do the research if they wanted to.
8. The idea that it should be okay to sue a gun manufacturer if someone uses their guns illegally and that legislation to prevent this type of silliness constitutes ‘bowing to special interests’.
It really does get tiring.
If you really want to test and improve your argumentation skills and learn how to argue, try the exercise of taking your opponents’ position. If you’re pro gun, argue logically and reasonably for the gun control position. Not only will this exercise sharpen your skills, it might inform you that your natural opponent is not as weak or illogical as you think; after all, you must know your opponent to defeat your opponent.
We used to do that way back in college on the 70s - usually involved a keg of beer and we did it on topics like abortion (illegal in the South), and other political/emotional issues. It really DOES make you see their side and when you understand BOTH sides of the debate, you have a better chance of winning. Most would do well to join some of the Bloomberg/anti-gun sites and read/"listen" to what they are saying.
berettaprofessor
New member
But this month, I have quit the NRA. Enough of its
incessant no-limits self-serving blather and
those who echo it.
And this is how we lost suppressors, and shortened shotguns, and magazines greater than 10 rounds, and new market machine guns for those who qualify, and mail order guns......because of the "I'll compromise...just this once...they won't ask for more..." mentality.