BigMikey76
New member
Very nice. I like that you actually wrote "YEAH!" next to the tighter groups. What did you find helped the most?
How come I never can get all 5 to group?
- Thread starter Wyoredman
- Start date
I went to the range alone. I then concentrated on making one shot at a time and did not even look at the target untill i had fired all four 5 shot groups.
After shooting the first group, I noticed that ny elevation turet was not at zero, so that explains the group 1 being so high. The wind was gusting pretty bad today which explains the POI shifting from group to group. But other than that, I was pretty happy.
I shot my .220 Swift also and got some ok groups. Here is that target:
Not quite as tight as the AR15, but not to bad. Two under 1".
The bad thing is, at 200 yrds, I couldn't get a group at all with the AR. I am thinking the wind was just gusting too much by that point.
After shooting the first group, I noticed that ny elevation turet was not at zero, so that explains the group 1 being so high. The wind was gusting pretty bad today which explains the POI shifting from group to group. But other than that, I was pretty happy.
I shot my .220 Swift also and got some ok groups. Here is that target:
Not quite as tight as the AR15, but not to bad. Two under 1".
The bad thing is, at 200 yrds, I couldn't get a group at all with the AR. I am thinking the wind was just gusting too much by that point.
Those groups aren't totally bad. What range were the first targets shot at? And Kraigwy has the straight dope, beware of some of these idiots as they don't have a clue.
Flyers are caused by many variables, and it's the student,(cause we are all students) that spends the most VALUABLE time correcting these variables. That first set of targets aren't really that bad per say, and if your shooting these groups at 200 yds, then they're pretty damn good man. anyway thats my buckfitty,,, good shooting dude!
Flyers are caused by many variables, and it's the student,(cause we are all students) that spends the most VALUABLE time correcting these variables. That first set of targets aren't really that bad per say, and if your shooting these groups at 200 yds, then they're pretty damn good man. anyway thats my buckfitty,,, good shooting dude!
You are shooting sub-moa.That is pretty good.
Now,realize,from the perfect center of the target,there is a sum total of less than 1/2 moa to find gains.What?
A hound dog can only run 1/2 way into the woods,after that,he is running out.Radius versus diameter.You have the radius to work with.
That 1/2 moa is divided up.
Some is still shooter error.
Some is the barrel.I'm not knocking your DPMS,but I would not have the same expectations from it that I would have from a top line barrel from a custom barrel maker
Some is likely copper fouling,correctable with Bore -tec eliminator and a nylon brush.Use a good one piece rod and a bore guide.Not doing damage is important
Some is in the ammo.Your rifle may prefer a different bullet weight,or ogive or seating depth.You may get better results with a different powder or primer.
Some gains can be had from a basic brass prep,
Trimming squares the neck and makes them the same length.
Chamfer helps keep the bullet from being damaged in seating
Light deburr of the flash hole.Keeps the primer flamefrom being distorted.
Brush out the necks with a nylon bore brush,Clean is good,makes a more uniform bullet release.
BTW,I took those steps from Precision Shootings Guide to Reloading for High Power competition,the steps to make "pretty good" ammo.
They also describe using an O-ring under the die lock ring or more concentric ammo.
OK,now,remember,to a degree,each of these steps may give you some results in reducing that less than 1/2 moa radius ,that is how far each individual shot varied from center.
You may pick up 1/16 in here,1/8 in there,etc,but that is where you are.
You can do as much of that as you like,
But some might say a next step would be getting that "How to shoot" book from CMP that Mr kraigwy recomends,and a shooting sling,and working with prone,sitting,etc.
Oh,you get extra bonus points for the wind!!Good job!You made improvement
Now,realize,from the perfect center of the target,there is a sum total of less than 1/2 moa to find gains.What?
A hound dog can only run 1/2 way into the woods,after that,he is running out.Radius versus diameter.You have the radius to work with.
That 1/2 moa is divided up.
Some is still shooter error.
Some is the barrel.I'm not knocking your DPMS,but I would not have the same expectations from it that I would have from a top line barrel from a custom barrel maker
Some is likely copper fouling,correctable with Bore -tec eliminator and a nylon brush.Use a good one piece rod and a bore guide.Not doing damage is important
Some is in the ammo.Your rifle may prefer a different bullet weight,or ogive or seating depth.You may get better results with a different powder or primer.
Some gains can be had from a basic brass prep,
Trimming squares the neck and makes them the same length.
Chamfer helps keep the bullet from being damaged in seating
Light deburr of the flash hole.Keeps the primer flamefrom being distorted.
Brush out the necks with a nylon bore brush,Clean is good,makes a more uniform bullet release.
BTW,I took those steps from Precision Shootings Guide to Reloading for High Power competition,the steps to make "pretty good" ammo.
They also describe using an O-ring under the die lock ring or more concentric ammo.
OK,now,remember,to a degree,each of these steps may give you some results in reducing that less than 1/2 moa radius ,that is how far each individual shot varied from center.
You may pick up 1/16 in here,1/8 in there,etc,but that is where you are.
You can do as much of that as you like,
But some might say a next step would be getting that "How to shoot" book from CMP that Mr kraigwy recomends,and a shooting sling,and working with prone,sitting,etc.
Oh,you get extra bonus points for the wind!!Good job!You made improvement
Hooligan, These targets are all 100yrds. I didn't post any from 200 because they were terrible. I started at 100 with both the .223 and the .220 Swift (1:00pm) yesterday. By the time (3:00pm) I got to the 200 yrd range, the wind was blowing the .223 everywhere! The Swift did a bit better. I can post those targets tonight.
Thanks for the input HiBC.
I do think that the DPMS trigger is pretty stiff, I may get a different one and see what happens. Even though it is a DPMS, I think it shoots better than I do. I need to master it before I can justify spending more money on a "custom" barrel!
Thanks for the input HiBC.
I do think that the DPMS trigger is pretty stiff, I may get a different one and see what happens. Even though it is a DPMS, I think it shoots better than I do. I need to master it before I can justify spending more money on a "custom" barrel!
I recall Dean Grennell refering to "1st round fliers" in semiautomatic pistols, I forget how he resolved it, perusing some other boards I see no consensus on either the cause or the cure. I would try firing a group with each round single loaded, though you seem to have resolved some of it on your own. Happy shooting.
I did not intend to suggest you need a different barrel.Not at all.
I meant to suggest realistic expectations from a moderately priced production barrel.That includes the sort of barrel you would get on a tac/varmint heavy barrel bolt rifle from the major mfgrs.
IMO,on the bench you have proved the rifle is capable of making you look good.Most all the time it is less than 1/2 in from the point of aim at 100 yds.
Most of the time,less than 3/8 in.
Shooting smaller groups is fun,and with just a little ammo tickling you will get some improvement.
IMO,now you know the rifle can shoot if it is resting on sandbags on a bench,you can work on not needing the bench.Anybody with enough money can buy an accurate rifle,but it won't make them a good shot.
It has been mentioned on this forum,the famous Whitefeather,Carlos Hathcock,got his business done with a rifle that was not anywhere close to being as accurate as the rifle you have.
What is in short supply..and to be valued,and respected,are gentlemen like kraigwy who have the skill and experience to pick up an old Garand battle rifle,sit down on their butt and knock the 10 ring out of a target with Marksmanship,not equiptment.
What is even better,he is willing to pass it on.
I missed a vintage battle rifle clinic he offered last year.Maybe I will get a second chance.
On your trigger,if it is a military grade poor trigger,IMO,the best value is a Rock River National Match 2 stage for about $120.
It is plenty good enough trigger to shoot very well.
I meant to suggest realistic expectations from a moderately priced production barrel.That includes the sort of barrel you would get on a tac/varmint heavy barrel bolt rifle from the major mfgrs.
IMO,on the bench you have proved the rifle is capable of making you look good.Most all the time it is less than 1/2 in from the point of aim at 100 yds.
Most of the time,less than 3/8 in.
Shooting smaller groups is fun,and with just a little ammo tickling you will get some improvement.
IMO,now you know the rifle can shoot if it is resting on sandbags on a bench,you can work on not needing the bench.Anybody with enough money can buy an accurate rifle,but it won't make them a good shot.
It has been mentioned on this forum,the famous Whitefeather,Carlos Hathcock,got his business done with a rifle that was not anywhere close to being as accurate as the rifle you have.
What is in short supply..and to be valued,and respected,are gentlemen like kraigwy who have the skill and experience to pick up an old Garand battle rifle,sit down on their butt and knock the 10 ring out of a target with Marksmanship,not equiptment.
What is even better,he is willing to pass it on.
I missed a vintage battle rifle clinic he offered last year.Maybe I will get a second chance.
On your trigger,if it is a military grade poor trigger,IMO,the best value is a Rock River National Match 2 stage for about $120.
It is plenty good enough trigger to shoot very well.
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Okay, now we're getting serious about shooting groups.
The next thing you need to do is to build or buy some wind flags. They can be as simple as a L shaped piece of coat hanger or brazing rod with a loop on the end, placed in a slightly larger drill hole in a stick. The rod swivels around, so the flagging doesn't wrap itself around the rod. I've made some pretty nice ones out of plastic signboard with coathanger rods, stuck in music stands with drilled bolts in the top.
Depending on the range and surrounding features, you may need four or more wind flags at distances of: 10 yards from your bench, 60 yards, 120 yards, and 170 yards. Any closer to the target than that won't make much difference in bullet flight. Pay the greatest attention to the closest flags because small changes in wind at the beginning make the greatest change in impact location.
The trick to shooting good groups using wind flags is to try shooting each shot with the flags in as close to the same position for each. If they move as a shot is fired, don't count that shot, or realize why it may be out of the group. Find one or two prevailing wind conditions and see where rounds impact from those conditions. If a condition looks different, try a sighter on another bull, rather than spoiling your group.
Hope this very basic wind information helps you shrink your groups. If you want to see what professionally-made wind flags look like, just Google "Wind Flags".
The next thing you need to do is to build or buy some wind flags. They can be as simple as a L shaped piece of coat hanger or brazing rod with a loop on the end, placed in a slightly larger drill hole in a stick. The rod swivels around, so the flagging doesn't wrap itself around the rod. I've made some pretty nice ones out of plastic signboard with coathanger rods, stuck in music stands with drilled bolts in the top.
Depending on the range and surrounding features, you may need four or more wind flags at distances of: 10 yards from your bench, 60 yards, 120 yards, and 170 yards. Any closer to the target than that won't make much difference in bullet flight. Pay the greatest attention to the closest flags because small changes in wind at the beginning make the greatest change in impact location.
The trick to shooting good groups using wind flags is to try shooting each shot with the flags in as close to the same position for each. If they move as a shot is fired, don't count that shot, or realize why it may be out of the group. Find one or two prevailing wind conditions and see where rounds impact from those conditions. If a condition looks different, try a sighter on another bull, rather than spoiling your group.
Hope this very basic wind information helps you shrink your groups. If you want to see what professionally-made wind flags look like, just Google "Wind Flags".