How come I never can get all 5 to group?
- Thread starter Wyoredman
- Start date
A self loader, correct?
My suggestion.
If you're loading 5 in a magazine dropping the bolt with the BHO lever & firing all 5 rounds there's your problem right there.
Try this just for a giggle.
Load 7 rounds.
Drop the bolt & waste the shot into the bank or on a different target.
Fire 5 rounds for score.
Throw away the last round same as the first.
I'm basing this on a test done elsewhere years back with a different self loader, (a FAL), the challenge was load 5, drop manually fire a 5-round group with the magazine empty on the last round. I think about 150 participated, no-one could post proof they could do the 2" group requested. It had to do with the dynamics of internal parts working differently between manual bolt operation, auto bolt operation & last round hold open. Switching to the setup above shrunk groups by a considerable amount.
If all the rounds out of a auto can't go into the same group, you have other problems besides the auto.
Take in a High Power match. In rapid fire stages at 200 & 300 yards you're required to fire 10 rounds per sting. Loading two in one magazine and eight in another, they firing with a magazine change.
You'll see a heck of a lot of Clean targets at 200 and several at 300 yards.
In high power you don't get the option of firing one into the bank, if you do its gonna cost you 5 points.
Take in a High Power match. In rapid fire stages at 200 & 300 yards you're required to fire 10 rounds per sting. Loading two in one magazine and eight in another, they firing with a magazine change.
You'll see a heck of a lot of Clean targets at 200 and several at 300 yards.
In high power you don't get the option of firing one into the bank, if you do its gonna cost you 5 points.
I can tell you for a fact that this is my issue, I shoot my best when I can barely see the target. As a matter of fact I'm getting to the point where I shoot irons about as well as I shoot with a scope.
There is one rifle I own which this does not hold true with and that's my Mini-14. The first round out of the mag will almost always be 2" low and 2" left of the rest of the group which I believe is caused by the action being hand cycled instead of being gas operated. I have even gone so far as to shoot groups of those first round fliers and those groups will be exactly the same size as a gas operated group just 2" low and 2" left of the gas operated group. This phenomenon doesn't really concern me since it's not a target rifle although with only about 500 rounds through it there's a chance it'll solve itself with more shooting.
Stu
Looks to me like the rifle's not being held the same way for all the shots.
Put a laser bore sighter in its muzzle, then dry fire the rifle watching how the laser spot behaves as you "click" the rifle. If it jumps around differently each time, you need some practice, training or maybe a coach to see what you're doing and help you do things right.
Most new (and some that have been shooting for decades) firearm shooters are finger flickers. I sure was when I started. They flick their finger off the trigger as soon as their nervous system senses the sear release the firing pin and that moves the barrel away from where it has to be to shoot where you want it to. As they are also wanting to get their finger off the trigger as soon as possible for some safety reason. So, as quick as possible, they flick their finger off the trigger after each shot.
Keep your trigger finger pulled back all the way until the firearm stops moving from recoil. This is called follow through. That'll eliminate the wide shots and you'll amaze yourself at how well you shoot.
Put a laser bore sighter in its muzzle, then dry fire the rifle watching how the laser spot behaves as you "click" the rifle. If it jumps around differently each time, you need some practice, training or maybe a coach to see what you're doing and help you do things right.
Most new (and some that have been shooting for decades) firearm shooters are finger flickers. I sure was when I started. They flick their finger off the trigger as soon as their nervous system senses the sear release the firing pin and that moves the barrel away from where it has to be to shoot where you want it to. As they are also wanting to get their finger off the trigger as soon as possible for some safety reason. So, as quick as possible, they flick their finger off the trigger after each shot.
Keep your trigger finger pulled back all the way until the firearm stops moving from recoil. This is called follow through. That'll eliminate the wide shots and you'll amaze yourself at how well you shoot.
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One more thought,for me,my old eyes have gone a mite wobbly.I need all the help I can get.
The round ,black bull with black scope crosshairs does not give me as precise of aiming point as some other targets.I have become partial to the orange diamonds.The crosshairs stand out sharply on the orange background and the diamond points are a precise reference.
The round ,black bull with black scope crosshairs does not give me as precise of aiming point as some other targets.I have become partial to the orange diamonds.The crosshairs stand out sharply on the orange background and the diamond points are a precise reference.
curmudgeon1
New member
I'll 'fess up ...... I use a 20x setting on the scope at 100yds. so I can see the bullet holes; putting the cross hairs on the center of the bullseye for the first cold-barrel shot, then on the first bullet hole for subsequent shots to get the best groupings. As stated in previous posts, and by Baseball Yogi, this stuff is 90% mental.
Marquezj16
New member
Everyone has mentioned the shooter's variable and somewhat the rifle (cycling).
I'd like to address the ammo. Since you reload, have you used different bullets or different charge? You might not have found your sweet spot yet.
I'd like to address the ammo. Since you reload, have you used different bullets or different charge? You might not have found your sweet spot yet.
Based on the original post:
Question for the OP, How exactly are you using the Calwell & how are you handling the rifle?
Not being a wiseacre, but if the shooter is removed from the equation then we need to look elsewhere, if not we need to look at the shooter & his technique as well.
I'm making the assumption that the shooter is 95% removed from the equation as long as the rest is being used correctly.
Question for the OP, How exactly are you using the Calwell & how are you handling the rifle?
Not being a wiseacre, but if the shooter is removed from the equation then we need to look elsewhere, if not we need to look at the shooter & his technique as well.
warbirdlover
New member
The best groups I shoot are when I shoot all three (or five) shots first and THEN worry about where they went. By doing that you are thinking about the technique on each shot and squeezing the trigger. I've also found if you have your trigger set too light (this is in MY case) I can't feel the squeeze and you get into the "tapping" the trigger thing instead of just aiming while squeezing. I don't like a trigger lighter then 3 lbs. Even for bench rest shooting.
Totally agree with this also. Found the exact same thing works for me.
Totally agree with this also. Found the exact same thing works for me.
psychopuppy1
New member
Just a thought that worked on me; take your buddy with you. Have him load each shell, individualy, before you shoot. He puts in a shell, you shoot it, he puts in a shell you shoot it, you dont get to see what he puts in it! One of them is going to be an empty shell, and he's going to watch your reaction when there is only a click, not a bang! It could be the 2nd, or 4th,or 5th shot, you dont know!
You might be surprised at what your doing!
Just a thought!
You might be surprised at what your doing!
Just a thought!
Regarding shooting all before checking and shoot & check schools of thought.
It seems that if you're doing what we called "grouping" (never mind the score, get a smallest possible group size) you'd keep a constant aim & wait for identical conditions before firing identically, but shooting for "application" (trying to get 'em all in the X-ring) you'd correct individually for best results.
It seems that if you're doing what we called "grouping" (never mind the score, get a smallest possible group size) you'd keep a constant aim & wait for identical conditions before firing identically, but shooting for "application" (trying to get 'em all in the X-ring) you'd correct individually for best results.
Perhaps your rounds need a bit of group counselling or at least introducing them to each other before expecting them to socialize. You probably take them to the range in a box with separators and a cover that keeps them in the dark, then you put them in the rifle one at a time.
For bullets to feel part of a group, they need to be formally introduced on the shooting bench, then rolled around together in your hands until they're comfortable and properly introduced to each other and want to be together on target. Touching bullet noses together in a group hug really helps the process of breaking the ice.
When you shoot a group, fire fairly fast, so the bullets can feel the warm tunnel of air left by it's friend, allowing it to "sniff" it's way to a tight group.
If groups don't improve by introduction and group hugs, further counseling may be required. If that fails, the only alternative is time-outs. Beating is not an option, as it may be hazardous to your health.
(Hope this little bit of humor helps. You got some really good advice by others, now put it to use and relax when you shoot. Like s-x, it's more enjoyable that way.)
For bullets to feel part of a group, they need to be formally introduced on the shooting bench, then rolled around together in your hands until they're comfortable and properly introduced to each other and want to be together on target. Touching bullet noses together in a group hug really helps the process of breaking the ice.
When you shoot a group, fire fairly fast, so the bullets can feel the warm tunnel of air left by it's friend, allowing it to "sniff" it's way to a tight group.
If groups don't improve by introduction and group hugs, further counseling may be required. If that fails, the only alternative is time-outs. Beating is not an option, as it may be hazardous to your health.
(Hope this little bit of humor helps. You got some really good advice by others, now put it to use and relax when you shoot. Like s-x, it's more enjoyable that way.)
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Shoot the 5 shot groups and as suggested shoot 5 one shot groups w/ consistancy from shot to shot.
Then develope a habit of calling the shot. How did it feel/look when you squeezed the bang switch? If it was off one way or so you should know. Then it aint a surprise and that shot can be discounted/disregarded depending on call.
Then develope a habit of calling the shot. How did it feel/look when you squeezed the bang switch? If it was off one way or so you should know. Then it aint a surprise and that shot can be discounted/disregarded depending on call.
Marquezj16
New member
Congrats! What did you change?