How come and can they?

"So, in a way, YES, you do have to work for an employer that is bigoted against guns. "

No, you don't.

There are many other choices.

If you don't see them, then yes, you do, so put down your guns.
 
Hah. Like I'm gonna "put my guns down" for you or anyone else.


If and when ALL businesses said, "You can't work here if you carry a gun," then yes, you would have NO CHOICE. You have to have a job, right? And any/all jobs worth having prohibit your choice to carry a gun, right? So how is that not being forced to disarm?

I say, it's being forced to thumb your nose at the stupidass rule.


Again, I ask you to name, say, a corporate financial entity that would not have a "no guns" rule in their handbook for employees.

You are copping-out and saying, "Well, you're not forced to work in the corporate financial setting," and I say, "What if I WANT to?" I want to but I can't do so AND carry a gun there. So in effect, I have been denied the choice of doing what I do AND working there.



-blackmind
 
Easy there fellas! I'm just trying to get some insight on this topic and see what you guys think, that's all. Not trying to start a war here. Blackmind I think you're right in saying that we're being denied a job because we believe in 2A, but the employer does have a right to run a company the way they see fit (as in providing a safe workplace). However, I don't agree with it because no one can gurantee my safety, ever! Carrying my sidearm does help the odds though for defense. If I'm being shot at in work (God forbid) I'm not going to worry about policy, I'm going to worry about my life and those around me. I'd rather get fired from my job then get fired at by a gun. Jammer is right too in saying that there's not much we can do but work for them, or quit. I mean let's face it, we're never going to get our cake and it eat too! (I know, it's corny)! It's a risk either way.
 
Blackmind I think you're right in saying that we're being denied a job because we believe in 2A, but the employer does have a right to run a company the way they see fit (as in providing a safe workplace).
Click to expand...


Well, that's exactly the point.
This is a classic case of idiots attempting to purchase safety by giving away liberty.

DOES implementing a "no guns" policy make anyone safer? NO. A maniac is still going to bring his gun in if he sees fit to kill people.

The ONLY difference will be that those he comes to kill will be that much less able to fight back for their lives. They'll do the standard thing and hide under desks, in closets, behind office doors... and hope that the maniac doesn't find them. (Did you see the movie "Runaway Jury"? It starts out just like that. Sheeple to the slaughter.)

So SINCE the office policy DOES NOT and CANNOT make me safe from anyone who simply decides to ignore it in favor of murder, I consider it illegitimate.


For anyone who carries where they are "not allowed to", here is a question:

What, apart from your humanity and morality, keeps those around you from being murdered by you, given that the rule that is supposed to prevent (hahaha) you from having a gun at work has obviously failed to do so?


I mean, the rule is there, and there you are with a gun. IF you were a murderer instead of just an average guy who wants to have his defense gun, they'd be dead, right? The rule provides no protection. The point is proven. So WHY would anyone in their right mind OBEY such a rule?


-blackmind
 
It's not safe to work, period.

It's not safe to run a skillsaw, work on a scaffolding, drive a truck, build a bridge, run an office, fill a gastank, weld, cut, bend, install, lift, carry, prosecute, poke, wrangle, or dive.

Different jobs, different risks, different pay.

If you're afraid, take a different job, or stay home.

Jobs are not your only choice. No one is making you work, and no one is saying that your work must be a job. The rest I leave as an excercise for you, the gentle reader.

If you take a job, do the work. Part of the work is the rules. It doesn't matter if the rule is a safety rule, a search, a gun, calling an individual you do not like "sir", or wearing a tie.

Break the rules, turn off your alarm clock and sleep in.

If you have to carry a gun, whatever you do, don't consider a job where carrying a gun is a REQUIREMENT.

That would make your philosophy of complaining go completely higglety-pigglety.

The rules are the difference between us and the bad guys. Break the rules, and you're just another bad guy with a gun in my book.

Have a nice day. :cool:
 
Good food for thought Jammer. Like I said, nobody is really going to win here. And while I agree with you're saying, in that we don't have to work and can choose to take a job or not, it's a little harsh about the "bad guy rule breaking" bit though. I'm sure that NO ONE obeys every rule made and does everything by the book straight and true, so isn't that a bit (pardon the expression) hypocritical to say those who break rules are all "bad guys"?
 
When one can easily see that a rule that is in place cannot achieve its objective, that calls into question the utility of even bothering to obey the rule yourself.

If the rules say that, "For everyone's safety, firearms are prohibited on the premises," and then you can easily see that a person who wanted to harm others would not be deterred, much less stopped, by such a rule, that's when I say, "So why should I let this rule disarm me? So that I can be unarmed when a murderer decides to disobey the rule??" :rolleyes:


If there's no point to a rule, the rule should not be in place.

So I avoid all the issue of whether the employer has the "right" to impose rule X, I just zero straight in on, "Is there even a point to this rule?" If the rule makes sense, I can entertain the thought of obeying it. If the rule is just feel-good bullscrap, then I am not gonna go along with it just for the feelgoodism's sake.



-blackmind
 
PHP: 
 Break the rules, and you're just another bad guy with a gun in my book.

Ouch. I doubt there is anyone here who can claim they never broke a rule at work. Are we all bad guys with guns, yourself included?

"It's not safe to run a skillsaw, work on a scaffolding, drive a truck, build a bridge, run an office, fill a gastank, weld, cut, bend, install, lift, carry, prosecute, poke, wrangle, or dive."

Absolutely true. It's not safe. However, you are allowed to take safety precautions, moreover required by federal and state law to take safety precautions against workplace hazards in all of these instances. It is not safe to carry where I work, even with a gun, however I am taking a safety precaution there. Against company policy, of course.

Out of curiosity, jammer six- do you allow your employees to carry at work? And what did you say "Huh?" about in 1998? Feel free to P.M. me if you can't say it here.

Blackmind- you do have an option. You can work for yourself. Maybe in a totally different field than you wish to work in, but you could go mow lawns or whatever.
 
I see no moral duty to comply with laws/rules that are immoral at their core. As blackmind has said, these rules are utterly inefficacious: they simply do not accomplish their stated feel-good purpose. At the same time, they leave you at the mercy of criminals or bloody-minded loons who decide to violate these same rules for their own criminal or bloody-minded ends. Therefore, such rules are morally bankrupt and undeserving of our fealty.

I largely agree with obeying the rules. But in some circumstances, the only moral thing left for a man to do is to break the rules. I won't surrender my family's security to agents or agencies that specifically disavow any duty or obligation to protect the same.

Just my $0.02, and I certainly am not advocating general lawlessness. :)

edited to correct grammatical turbidity
 
No, Six, it's not, but if you don't see the distinction, that's okay, too. Just read your posts on how to avoid traffic tickets. I understand, really, I do.
 
Just my $0.02, and I certainly am not advocating general lawlessness. "

Actually, that's exactly what you're doing.
Click to expand...
Actually, No
Work place rules are just rules for the work place.
They are not laws, usually.

If they catch me the can only fire me.
They can't arrest me, usually
 
I think the original question has been answered.

Can businesses dictate whether or not you can carry? Yes, it is their private property.

Why? Because the 2nd amendment (and all the others) are restrictions on the actions and power of GOVERNMENT. Restrictions on the actions of individuals are called laws. In most places, there are no laws that restrict a property owners right to dictate your actions on their property (as long as they don't violate any other laws).

As others have said, the difference is if you break a law, you can be punished by the gov't. If you break a property owner's rule.... what happens is up to them, as long as they violate no laws. In this case, the typical response is "You can't come here anymore."

So no, IMO, you do not have a "moral responsibility" to obey a rule (or even a law for that matter) that you disagree with. Legality and morality are often similar, but they are not the same thing by any means. HOWEVER, if you choose to ignore a rule, you should be prepared to suffer the consequences and not look surprised if it happens. Your other alternative is to attempt to change the rules or laws you disagree with.
 
Blackmind- you do have an option. You can work for yourself. Maybe in a totally different field than you wish to work in, but you could go mow lawns or whatever.
Click to expand...


Um, I really hope that you don't believe this is a fair and viable "option."

You're saying that if I wanted to work as an architect, studied for years, took state exams, etc., and then found that every architecture firm in the country had a policy excluding firearms, it's not unfair to me because I could "mow lawns." :rolleyes:

What putrid logic you employ.

I suppose that if I worked at an office that prohibited bringing outside food into the building, and then they had a cafeteria that served only rotten cabbage, they wouldn't be acting unfairly, and I'd be "just another bad guy with a roast beef sub" if I smuggled in my own lunch... :rolleyes:


Excluding all attractive choices from a person and leaving only ONE, UNATTRACTIVE choice is NOT LEAVING A CHOICE AT ALL. How some of you can't see that is beyond me. I guess I can't think down to that level or something.


-blackmind
 
"You're saying that if I wanted to work as an architect, studied for years, took state exams, etc., and then found that every architecture firm in the country had a policy excluding firearms, it's not unfair to me because I could "mow lawns."

Nope.

You always have options. Even as a trained architect, when every firm has such a policy.

You've been told, you've been shown.

Try to have a nice day. :cool:
 
I suppose that if I worked at an office that prohibited bringing outside food into the building, and then they had a cafeteria that served only rotten cabbage, they wouldn't be acting unfairly, and I'd be "just another bad guy with a roast beef sub" if I smuggled in my own lunch...
Click to expand...

The option you always have is NOT WORK THERE. If they have bad cabbage, and thats all they allow, then you leave, plain and simple. Is this really difficult?
 
You're saying that if I wanted to work as an architect, studied for years, took state exams, etc., and then found that every architecture firm in the country had a policy excluding firearms, it's not unfair to me because I could "mow lawns."
Click to expand...
O.K., if mowing lawns is beneath you, then go into business for yourself as an architect. Fair? Maybe not, maybe so. Would you want your employees to dictate what you allow in your place of business?
What putrid logic you employ.
Click to expand...
Logic is putrid? That doesn't make any sense.

Blackmind, I think we all agree guns shouldn't be prohibited in the workplace. It's common sense; if you can't trust an employee not to kill you, you shouldn't have hired him. I think some want to step over the line and create another law. That's wrong. Business owners (which you could be someday yourself) have enough laws restricting their rights on their own property without creating new ones.

I'm not saying business owners shouldn't be a little more sensible with their rights, I'm saying we shouldn't try to legislate common sense.
 
The option you always have is NOT WORK THERE. If they have bad cabbage, and thats all they allow, then you leave, plain and simple. Is this really difficult?
Click to expand...


And when the policy of banning outside food and serving rotten cabbage starts to be the norm at more and more offices until you can't find one that doesn't have such a policy?

That's what I'm talking about, because that's exactly what has happened with the gun issue in corporate America.

You people are using the same logic when telling people to find other work that the anti-gunners use. How many times have we heard, "We're not banning all guns; you can still go have your fun with single-shot .22s..." :rolleyes:

As long as you are left with one option, they say that they've left your options open. That's disingenuous. If avenues are closed off to you, they are closed off to you. Period. You either have FULL choice, or your choice is limited.


-blackmind
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top