How come and can they?

I would ABSOLUTELY boycott any business that actively dis-allowed legal CCWs on their property.
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You mean that you would boycott any business that you're aware of.

Many service companies don't allow their employees to carry, because those employees go into people's homes, and for better or worse, the companies are concerned with what their customers want in their homes. When they do so, they don't tell you about it, and you have no way of knowing.

There you have it, folks - when you are at work, you have NO CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS.

...

Think about it.
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No. Get back to work.
 
Actually, your employer can dictate what you do while not on their private property but while you are on your own.

Like the no smoking precedent that the courts have uphold in MI and FLA. If you work for the state of Florida, you cannot smoke ANYWHERE. If you sneak a cigg at home, you're fired. In your car, you're fired. At the traven, you're fired.

And the same with that company in MI. If you smoke ANYWHERE or ANYTIME, you are fired.

Nice to see that their private property rights now extend to yours.

Ain't America great.

Wayne
 
<---- is happily employed by a boss who likes to go with me to the range every now and then, and yeah he prefers his employees carry on the job


<--Locksmith
 
Progunner quote:
On the job, the Constitution is absolutely meaningless. You have no right to due process, no right to not have your property confiscated, no right to refuse to be strip/body cavity searched, no right to remain silent, no right to legal counsel, no right to refuse detention against your will, if you want to keep your job.

When you say "Their property their rules," that is exactly what you are saying - and it is... "angus feces."

The Constitution - and the Bill of Rights - is the ultimate law of the land, PERIOD. There are no "Constitution/Bill of Rights free zones," no waviers for tyranny, no exceptions. At least, that was the intent of those who wrote the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

Today in Socialist America, the Sheeple have meekly submitted to being stripped of their rights at the court house, at the post office, at work, at school, at the grocery, at the freaking mall. As a result,there are damn few places in Socialist America where you can exercise your rights as guaranteed by the Constitution.

The more arbitrary and illegitimate power that the Sheeple allow employers assume, the more they will assume
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I disagree. The Constitution recognizes personal property rights and the importance that Gov't not intrude on personal property. That's something that I think that most people on TFL would also agree with. You don't want Uncle Sam telling you you must allow anti-gunners the right to enter your property, so why should anti-gunners be forced to allow guns on their property. It only makes sense. And, further, you still have the rights allowed under the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 14th, etc. while on private property; it's just that the private property owner can force you to leave his property and never return. You can still exercise your right to religion, free speech, search and seizure, due process, etc. However, if you don't agree with the property owner's requests for a search or limiting your free speech for instance, the private property owner asks that you leave and you refuse, for instance, he could have the police remove you. Because the police are gov't actors, you have ALL of your Constitutional protections.

I absolutely agree with principal and I'm proud of our Founding Fathers for being so inciteful and wise.
 
Thanks guys. Sux yea, but hey not much one can really do about I suppose. I believe there should be a waiver to sign though. Because if I can't carry, I want in writing that the place of work,bus,etc will guarantee my safety and if something should happen out of violence they will be held liable and I have the right to sue. But that's just my .2.
 
Thanks guys. Sux yea, but hey not much one can really do about I suppose. I believe there should be a waiver to sign though. Because if I can't carry, I want in writing that the place of work,bus,etc will guarantee my safety and if something should happen out of violence they will be held liable and I have the right to sue. But that's just my .2.
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But you do have the right to ask your employer to sign such a written guarantee! So instead of complaining you need to take action. Write or type the guarantee you want and ask your employer to sign it.

There's also nothing to prevent you from asking storeowners to sign such a guarantee. You could have several copies of it made for very little money at a quick copy place and carry them with you when you go shopping.
 
so can a business search your privately owned vehicle,parked out in the lot?say..a locked trunk?
 
gdm, I would say that depends on what you agreed to when you hired on.

Read the employment agreement before you sign it, before you take the job.

That all said, they can't lock you up for breaking their rules. The worst thing they can do is fire you.

But the time to negotiate is before you take the job, not in the parking lot.

It's not a matter of rights, it's not a constitutional issue.

It's a contract issue, and it's what you agreed to by taking the job that matters.
 
Let me get this straight:

Constitutional rights apply to the government.
Constitutional rights do not apply on private property.
Therefore, you have no 2A rights on other peoples' private property.

Okay, here's my curveball:

What are your 2A rights at work if you work for the government?
Does an employment agreement with the government supercede constitutional rights.
 
"so can a business search your privately owned vehicle,parked out in the lot?say..a locked trunk?"

Yes they can- it happened in Oklahoma. I think it came down to 'show us what's in your trunk or you're fired'. A gun? You're fired anyway.' You are subject to search on private property unless there's a state law against it.

"It's a contract issue, and it's what you agreed to by taking the job that matters."

No. It's whatever you, as an employer, decide as a whim that matters.
 
You can argue that an employer has private property rights and unrestricted rights to contract with employees, but what happens when market pressure is insufficient to influence employers who disrespect their employees? "Live with it?" It might take 100 years of corporate-sponsored big-brotherism culminating in a revolution before things get back on track.

Every society has arbitrary community standards. I think part of the arbitrary community standards of the United States should be respecting other people's right to carry guns, knives, and flamethrowers. I don't think it's really something to be negotiated in a contract. Sheeple and employers should get with it or go back across the pond.
 
The thing to do, then, is to not take the job.

Make the point.

State that you carry, that you want to carry, and if you can't carry, then walk away.

If you take the job under false pretenses, the "sheeple" (god, did I really use that term?) are one up on you.

At least they're honest.
 
"State that you carry, that you want to carry, and if you can't carry, then walk away."

When I started carrying, my supervisor told me it was okay to carry where I work. Two years ago, our company invented a no guns policy when they found out some people were carrying. I have 9 years with the company. I'm not quitting. We've had people robbed at gunpoint. I'm not going to stop carrying.

They have private property rights. I have to right to protect myself. They have the right to fire me. It's a don't ask, don't tell system. Not a perfect system, but it's working.

Why can't we all just get along? If it ain't broke don't fix it.
 
What if
If someone in your office regularly got on a soapbox preaching their religion and demeaning all others to the point of calling some gutter religions and stating that all Catholics are bound for hell.

The man in the cubicle down from your daughter's posted graphic sexual images of men and small sheep

Or the spinster putting out pamphlets showing aborted fetuses

Or the skinhead that wears the the white power T_shirts or the party slut that wears last night hooking costume

And lets not even go to the fat girls in the belly shirts and butt crack pants

Should the company be able to violate these people's right of free speech and expression or should they be forced to put up with behavior contrary to their company policies
 
joab that's a great point! I see people breaking all kinds of "rules and regs" here but no one says anything. Far as I'm concerned, I don't draw attention to myself and go about my business. Wayne is correct in saying "Don't ask, don't tell". I'm not going to go around printing in my work clothes, or act suspicious so as I'm asked "What's on my hip, or under my shirt". And I'm sure that there are some here who carry, I don't doubt it.
 
so can a business search your privately owned vehicle,parked out in the lot?say..a locked trunk?"

Yes they can- it happened in Oklahoma. I think it came down to 'show us what's in your trunk or you're fired'. A gun? You're fired anyway.' You are subject to search on private property unless there's a state law against it.

"It's a contract issue, and it's what you agreed to by taking the job that matters."

No. It's whatever you, as an employer, decide as a whim that matters.
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In Oklahoma, this is no longer the case. Employers can no longer prohibit concealed carry of firearms in parking lots. The case mentioned involved Weyerhauser in Southeastern Oklahoma, and has since been ruled in the employees favor.

I have no problem with employers prohibiting firearms inside the business. Thats their right. No different than any other policy. I also agree withthe ruling and recent legislation allowing carry in parking lots. The employer basically dictates what you do on their time, thus they pay you. Off their time, its your decision.
 
spiff said:
you dont HAVE to work for an employer who is bigoted to guns.
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Well, I bet it's tough to find a corporate entity to work for that does not have, embedded somewhere in their employee manual, a rule probiting even licensed concealed carry of weapons.


So, in a way, YES, you do have to work for an employer that is bigoted against guns. When just about all of them have such a rule, you are left with disagreeable choices:
- leave your gun at home and be vulnerable on your way to and from work, and to workplace psychopaths on shooting sprees
- carry anyway, and risk being found out and fired (although I don't imagine they could make a criminal charge stick, as long as you leave peaceably when found out)

I bet that apart from in some states that are very rural and pro-gun/pro-hunting, there are very few if any corporate offices that do not attempt some b.s. "CYA" policy that says, "No guns." They do this NOT to make anyone safer, but to give themselves an out from liability in case someone they did not prohibit from bringing a gun to the office.

If someone shot up the office and it was exposed that there was no policy prohibiting guns, they company would be skewered, civilly. Forget about the fact that logically, a big bad toothless rule like that doesn't stop a determined psycho. (That reality gets glossed over by blissninnies.)



It has been pointed out that if you carry despite the rule, by definition, if you are carrying concealed, no one will know, and you still get to enjoy the protection of having your defensive firearm. And if you have to use it, it may well be during an altercation where you save the lives of employees.

At that point -- let's say you put yourself between the disgruntled terminated employee who came back to kill everyone, and your fellow employees, and you stop his rampage -- I would say that you could make a very public demand/stand for the elimination of the no-licensed-gun-carry rule.

Just imagine it: You are at work, and the ex-employee comes in with his MAK-90 and starts killing people. He comes through your floor, and he's already killed or shot 5-10 people, and there are 30 more to kill if he makes it past you. YOU, having realized the UTTER STUPIDITY of a policy that makes honest people leave their defensive guns at home, are carrying your GLOCK 27 or your P9 or something, and you spring from behind a pillar and shoot the murderer dead.

The news covers what happened, and can't deny that a worker shot the murderer with a handgun he had brought to work. (We know that sometimes the news media like to say, "Workers 'tackled' the gunman," even when someone brought out their own gun and forced a surrender, like at that law school in WV.) This time, you are interviewed and they find out you were licensed to CCW, and you get a chance to say, "If I had not had my gun to stop this guy, I would be dead, and so would 30 more people. THIS POLICY MUST BE RESCINDED NOW!!"

Would you like to be the administrator who has to explain why he will leave the no-guns policy in place despite the fact that it would clearly have cost more lives?

-blackmind
 
liliysdad said:
I have no problem with employers prohibiting firearms inside the business. Thats their right. No different than any other policy. I also agree withthe ruling and recent legislation allowing carry in parking lots. The employer basically dictates what you do on their time, thus they pay you. Off their time, its your decision.
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This does not comport:

- On one hand you say that the employers have the right to prohibit firearms "inside the business."

- On the other hand, you say that you support the legislation that dictates that they have to allow guns in the parking lots.

The parking lot is every bit the "property" of the business as the actual office structure is. So the way I see it, they should either be able to ban it altogether, or our right to carry (licensed by the state such as it is) trumps their right to prohibit carry on the premises. Not half-and-half.


For myself, I believe that anyone who enacts a policy that dictates that I have to be voluntarily disarmed is infringing on my human right to self defense. I have no problem, morally, with totally disregarding such a policy, with contempt and prejudice. I am not the one who initiates the wrong, here. I am responding to a wrong -- that of them telling me I have to be vulnerable.

Many times, it is said that the RIGHT to do something is not necessarily the EXCUSE for doing it. A company may indeed have the right to tell employees they have to be good little unarmed sheeple, but that don't make it right to do so.

Will the company suck it up and pay out big-time to survivors of those killed when a guy decides to disregard all the laws against murdering and firing in a structure, etc. and comes in shooting (with a "prohibited" gun)? After all, the argument can easily be made that a defensive handgun could have a shot at stopping the carnage before it takes off.


-blackmind
 
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