How come 1911 autos never took with LEOs in the early to mid 20th century?

I've seen a lot of 1911s in our local PD over the years. As long as you can qualify with it, you can carry anything you want. That translated to 1911s for quite a few of the guys.
 
I'll tell you one thing. I would take a quality large frame revolver in .357 or .41 mag or .44 mag over a box-stock 1911 as my duty weapon every time. For me, the 1911 is terribly flawed in mil-spec configuration. With an arched mainspring housing, it does not point properly in my hand. With the short trigger, I catch the trigger with the joint of my knuckle, not in the pad of my finger (where I prefer it). I get fierce hammer bite from the long, pointy hammer spur capturing the web of my hand between itself and the too-short grip safety arch. Then there's the issue of the stock sights, which in my opinion are far too small.

Well, I'm not the only soul who's had these basic problems with the stock 1911A1 configuration. It is only comparatively recently that the aftermarket has sprung up to provide parts and gunsmithing services which would solve these problems and make them available on a more or less widespread basis, and then the newly manufactured pistols began to provide these custom features as integral components. Until these things happened, it was quite unlikely to be adopted as the primary service arm of very many law enforcement agencies, though, of course, many individual officers did carry them.

Also, for many years, the 1911 had a very mixed reputation as far as accuracy is concerned. Regardless of the actual validity of this perception, it existed and undoubtedly influenced many police departments' decision to stick with their tried and true Smith or Colt revolvers.
 
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What about style? The old-days police didnt look good without a six-shooter. It has a classic police look. Remember Kojak? He wouldnt look good if he carried around a chrome plated 1911? Nothing like that 2 inch barrel wheel gun. Kojak knows, he got all the women;)
 
In the mid 20th century, it had to come down to a question of reliability. The 1911 only fired hardball with any reliability and even then it was not as reliable as the colt and s&w revolver. The 1911 brought very little benefit: two extra rounds and a quicker reload. Elmer Keith and Bill Jordan wrote quite a bit about this debate, always favoring the sixgun. Of course things got much better in the later part of the 20th century.

I carried a 1911 in the Marine Corps as an MP. Most units were transitioning over to the Beretta by then but not base MP's. They made us carry that thing, empty chamber, hammer forward with only five rounds in the magazine. I don't think they trusted 19 year olds with a badge and a single action auto with one in the pipe.

I later carried a 1911 as a police officer for quite a few years. I love to shoot them and I think they are American classics. However, I still had more jams then I cared to count over the years. For carry purposes, my 1911 days are over with.
 
How much are you (generic "you") willing to pay for that training? That is what a lot of this amounts to. YOUR tax dollars at work. Want to send every LEO in the country to Thunder Ranch for a week? That's only about $2 Billion. Got to keep that in mind...civvies can train as much as they want since they pay for it. But if you want your cops to train to a
level you want, you have to pay for it.
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Well good point about cost, but short of having all of them going to Thunder Ranch, don't you think that their regular firearms trainer can train them to carry a 1911 C&L? I mean it really isn't rocket science. They have safeties on their shotguns and carbines (that essentially have single action style triggers) and they are trained to use those just fine. Having said that, I will cede that training them on a safe action style trigger such as Glock or the M&P equivalent is probably the most practical and cost effective training strategy since it is bone head simple and one only has to learn the one trigger pull.
 
I later carried a 1911 as a police officer for quite a few years. I love to shoot them and I think they are American classics. However, I still had more jams then I cared to count over the years. For carry purposes, my 1911 days are over with.
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I'm curious, which brands of 1911 did you have trouble with?
 
I'm curious, which brands of 1911 did you have trouble with?
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My first 1911 was a Springfield TRP. I was excited to have it. The very first time I inserted a magazine and thumbed the slide stop, the round jammed into the bottom of the feed ramp. I had nothing but problems with that gun and sold it to a buddy of mine who had been the original owner (I was the third owner). I made him aware of the problems and he bought it back anyway.

My second 1911 was a series I Kimber. I got fairly reliable service out of that weapon but every so often, it would jam on ball practice ammo: stove pipes, mostly. I had weak extractor tension one time. Fixed that, thought every thing was alright then it would jam again maybe several hundred round later. It might go 500 rounds without jamming, it might go more or less. Could have been magazines, ammo, who knows?

Of course, I've seen scores of jams with other 1911's over the past 14 year. I spent eight years on a SWAT team in which the majority of guys on the team carried 1911's-Kimber's, Les Baers, STI's. I've seen a few jams over the years.

I still have a Colt 1911 in my safe. Again, love em, just not going to rely on one for defense work. Just a personal choice.
 
My first 1911 was a Springfield TRP. I was excited to have it. The very first time I inserted a magazine and thumbed the slide stop, the round jammed into the bottom of the feed ramp. I had nothing but problems with that gun and sold it to a buddy of mine who had been the original owner (I was the third owner). I made him aware of the problems and he bought it back anyway.

My second 1911 was a series I Kimber. I got fairly reliable service out of that weapon but every so often, it would jam on ball practice ammo: stove pipes, mostly. I had weak extractor tension one time. Fixed that, thought every thing was alright then it would jam again maybe several hundred round later. It might go 500 rounds without jamming, it might go more or less. Could have been magazines, ammo, who knows?

Of course, I've seen scores of jams with other 1911's over the past 14 year. I spent eight years on a SWAT team in which the majority of guys on the team carried 1911's-Kimber's, Les Baers, STI's. I've seen a few jams over the years.

I still have a Colt 1911 in my safe. Again, love em, just not going to rely on one for defense work. Just a personal choice.
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Gotcha. Thanks very much for relating your experiences. I'm a relatively new 1911 shooter and I see why it is seen to constitute a superlative shooting experience, I mean it is an absolutely brilliant platform to shoot, but there's no doubt that it could be a finicky pistol.
 
Well good point about cost, but short of having all of them going to Thunder Ranch, don't you think that their regular firearms trainer can train them to carry a 1911 C&L?
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Sure they could, but why should they? The 1911 (single actions in general) just don't do that much for law enforcement. You don't get a better gun for LE work by going with a SA.
They have safeties on their shotguns and carbines (that essentially have single action style triggers) and they are trained to use those just fine.
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One: no, they are not trained to use those just fine. Some officers are fairly well trained with the long guns, and the number is getting bettter all the time, but lots have had little or no training, and it shows. Two: you might note that the long-guns are also traditionally carried chamber empty.
 
I carried a Para-Ordnance P-13, or P-14 on duty for about 15 years. The ONLY time I had jams of any kind was if I allowed the recoil spring to get weak. As long as I replaced them regularly, I didn't have ANY jams with ball, or hollow points. I think it is up to the operator to insure their equipment works correctly, and if it doesn't, either repair it, or get rid of it. I wouldn't drive a car where the brakes or steering worked "most of the time" and I wouldn't carry a gun that worked "most of the time".

It usually isn't that hard to find out why a gun malfunctions, but there are some guns that just don't work regardless of what you do. Anyone who carries, or drives something that doesn't work correctly deserves the consequences. Darwin's theory of survival of the fittest (or in this case the smartest).
 
Sure they could, but why should they? The 1911 (single actions in general) just don't do that much for law enforcement. You don't get a better gun for LE work by going with a SA.
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That's true, for most LE work, and given the obviously limited training levels, it isn't in a dept's interest to train for SA use.

One: no, they are not trained to use those just fine. Some officers are fairly well trained with the long guns, and the number is getting bettter all the time, but lots have had little or no training, and it shows. Two: you might note that the long-guns are also traditionally carried chamber empty.
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OK point well taken.

But, I won't concede my general point that cops ought to be more pro active in attaining and retaining better shooting skills. I still can't be convinced that a police officer that barely hits his target is somehow a good thing :o
 
One other issue. As more women got into LE it was realized that not all (there were some) women were ale to handle a 357 revolver. So I believe a compromise was made.
 
But, I won't concede my general point that cops ought to be more pro active in attaining and retaining better shooting skills.
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Sure, just like every gunowner ought to be more pro active in attaining and retaining better shooting skills, and every driver should be more pro active in attaining and retaining better drving skills, and everyone out to be more pro active about attaining and retaining better communication skills , and so on and so on. But there is very limited amount of time and other resources available to attain and retain better anything, so choices have to be made.
 
I'm not certain why so much training is needed to operate a firearm or shoot it accurately.

When I was in the military, they trained everyone to shoot fairly well within a week. Many of the 18-23 year old recruits, most who had zero experience firing anything, seemed to shoot just fine after only a week of training.

I think after a few days of training 90% of the public could probably shoot well enough to pass a qualification. The other 10% probably should not be around firearms if they cant seem to hit a pie-plate from 25 yards after a few days of training.

Getting back to the original topic, the 1911s I have dealt with were never that accurate or reliable. I know that the military had them for many years, but just because the Army uses it doesn't mean its good. I remember the Army dealing with many of the firearms issues with different fixes. For example, how do you keep an M16 from jamming up from dust or dirt? Easy, put a condom over the barrel opening, wrap it up in plastic, hold it over your head when going through a stream and clean it. For every 10 minutes of shooting equals 1 hour of cleaning. I sometimes wondered why they went with the M16 when there were so many other better ones out there. How the M16 passed all those tests I will never know...why didnt more countries simply copy the M16? why did they copy the AK instead?

Police need firearms that are safe, reliable and accurate. The revolver was very popular because it delivered all of these features. When you pulled the trigger, it went off. You didn't shoot yourself with it. Its accuracy was very good.
 
In the 60's when I started the Chief made policy & most chief's did not like automatics due to "They always jam" "Their not safe" and much more drivel that stereotyped autos in those days also "We aren't the Army".
 
1911 carried by LEO's

The 1911 is being carried by more and more competent LEO's everyday. I can attest to a huge resurgence of the 1911 and many agancies adapting their policies to allow it's carry that had not allowed it before. Even LAPD allows officers in specialized units to carry 1911's. It is perfectly safe to carry "cocked and locked." In fact, it is one of the only semi-automatic handguns I would ever tell someone in law enforcement to carry with the safety activated while on duty.

I carry a 1911 daily on duty and have for years.
 
I'm not certain why so much training is needed to operate a firearm or shoot it accurately.
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I've always been taught and still believe that firearms skills are perishable for those people who carry a firearm for defensive purposes. In gunfights, it's a game of seconds and inches and is Bill Jordan wrote, "there is no second place winner." If you don't practice your draw, your trigger squeeze, your reload, etc., your skills will diminish, even if slightly. That slight difference could decide who wins and who loses. They say Jelly Bryce, famed 20th century lawman and multiple gunfight winner, practiced religiously, allegedly, eight hours at a time in some instances. He died in his sleep of natural causes instead of in an alley, ditch, or dive at the hands of some ne'er-do-well.
 
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