How come 1911 autos never took with LEOs in the early to mid 20th century?

The main reason police departments like the 9mm is because the LEAA will supply all the ammo they want at no cost (military purchase). If they use .40 S&W, .38 Special, or anything else, it's "byoa" (buy your own ammo).

There is nothing at all wrong with the .357 Magnum or even the hotter .38 Specials for police work. Most of the "advantages" of the auto pistol are in the minds of the police, who feel "outgunned" by crooks with hi-cap pistols.

When a local department switched from .38 Special (using +P+ .357 equivalent ammo), to 9mm Glocks, there was an incident where a police officer emptied his pistol at a man standing less than 20 feet away, nicking the guy with the last round. The police chief told reporters that the incident could "have had a tragic ending" if not for the new large capacity pistol. He never said why the cop couldn't shoot or where the first 16 shots went. The old "shoot 'em as long as you got 'em" syndrome.

Jim
 
Jim Keenan said:
The military banned not only cocked-and-locked carry but also loaded chamber carry, requiring that the slide be operated to load the pistol when necessary.
Click to expand...

Kind of defeats the purpose of an automatic... I'm curious as to why the military might have banned cocked and locked carry. Were they afraid the hammer would drop by itself despite the safety being activated?
 
Colt Government models and surplus 1911s were known for crappy triggers, poor sights and lack of reliability. Its just been the last twenty years that the 1911 has been modified enough to make it a viable carry weapon.

Until Kimber came alone, colt had not changed their models for 50 years. After Kimber hit the shelves with all the hitherto custom features, colt and SA got their act together and began delivering 1911s that had all the features that were formerly expensive custom work.

There is also the issue of ammo. Until the mid 70s, the only ammo for a .45 ACP was ball. The only HPs available were very expensive and exotic Super Vels. It was the 80s before WW or Rem started loading HPs in .45

For a working cop, the ultimate status symbol was a Smith Model 19 in a basket weave border patrol holster. However, about 98 per cent of cops were stuck with a Model 10 or Colt OP in a plain old box style holster. Fine guns indeed, they did not have the aura of a 'magnum'. But they did have better triggers than any Colt or Browning auto.

The military always had a love/hate relationship with handguns. They were happiest when all the issued .45 were locked up in the arms room. When one had to be issued for guard duty, they distrusted the GI carrying it. They,not so unreasonably, assumed that a draftee with a f*ckup attitude or an enlistee fleeing a criminial conviction would mishandle a pistol. Hence, when the pistol went out, it was with one magazine loaded with five rounds and an empty chamber. Any other condition would get you a court marshal. When the unit went to the field, no ammunition was issued. When combat came, the .45s were abandoned en masse as too heavy and not worth carrying.
 
There was a long time where the revolver inclined folks were "in power" and held sway. That is what happened in 1968 when I came home from the Navy and one of the first things I did was go up to see old Harley and try to get on as a deputy sheriff.

We discussed quite a number of things, including carry weapon, and he let me know in no uncertain terms that if I were hired, . . . I could not carry my 1911. I didn't get hired.

May God bless,
Dwight
 
Sa Not Allowed On Lea Range

I can think of several police ranges in my area that do not allow SA pistols on the range PERIOD. That seems to be the mindset of lot of agencies here in Alabama. However, a neighboring agency requires their officers to purchase their own weapon, and that weapon must be a 45 acp- make and model do not matter. Most of their officers carry 1911's.
 
Shooter John: What part of Bama are you in?

You are correct in that I know of no agencies that allow S.A. carry. But I know several officers who carry S.A. off duty, and they do let us "civilians" shoot our single action auto's on the FOP range here.
 
We finally went to 9mm's in the early 80's after a bank robber shot it out with one of our K-9' and our guy used his last round in the .357 revolver to put down the advancing BG after he and his K-9 were ambushed and shot by the robber from cover. The BG taunted the downed officer that he was "out" and was walking towards him when he absorbed the .357. Seems the BG missed counted and thought the officer had fired all six from his S&W. The officer's back up was coming but he and the dog had out distanced the backup into heavy brush in an old coal town in eastern King County. The officer lost a finger and the K-9 was retired with honors. It took that incident to finally get out dinosauer command staff to move away from manditory revolvers for all.
 
1911s in Police Service

I'm not trying to bash anybody, but a couple of the previous posts had some inaccuracies . . .

Somebody claimed that free ammo was available from the Law Enforcement Assistance Administraiton (LEAA). This is not remotely true. The LEAA was disbanded in 1977 by the Carter Administration! Police agencies can often get practice and service ammo for a signficant savings because they don't have to pay 11% federal excise tax and also may get a discount for bulk orders. In my state, any county or municipal department can order ammo off the state bid and get it quite cheaply -- I would expect other states have a similar arrangement.

Proper HP service ammo for the .45 ACP cartridge was available from about 1977 on. The popular choices were the Remington 185 grain HP(that had the jacket folded up OVER the lips of the HP cavity to ensure proper feeding) and the Speer 200 grain "Flying ashtray" or "Flying Coffee Cup". (Most guns had to be throated to feed the Speer 200 grain bullet, however). And about 1979 or 80 the WW Silvertip came out.

I came on in 1981, working for a little town that had a wide open handgun policy. The Chief carried a Browning P35 (condition two -- hammer down on a loaded chamber!) and the three of us who were IPSC shooters carried M1911 pattern pistols, two Colt Gold Cups and I carried a Combat Commander. The rest of the PD had S&W or Colt revolvers.

In 1988 I switched to a Beretta 92F because the DA auto was clearly the way the world was going, like it or not (and I was an MP in the ARNG at that time, although my unit didn't switch from the M1911A1 to the M9 until the early 1990s). (for what it's worth, I have big hands and long fingers and the M9 fit me fine. I really like them)

The Texas Rangers and some of the early FBI agents carried SA auto pistols in .45 ACP or .38 Super. There were/are areas where SA autos are allowed as an option. There were/are lots of agencies in the southwest where SA pistols have been carried for years, as well as a couple of the Chicago suburbs.

Back about 1975 or so, Allen P. Bristow wrote a book called The Search for an Effective Police Handgun (published by Charles C. Thomas) and his conclusion was that the .45 Auto Pistol was a fine choice in the hands of a trained operator. I used his book as a major source for a research paper on police handguns I did during my last semester of college (spring 1980).

"Cocked & Locked" carry (condition three) is something that should only be attempted by a trained & experienced operator who practices on a regular basis. Sadly, most cops don't practice much at all, which makes this option a bad choice for them.
 
Actually, the idea that cops did not carry autos in the early part of the 20th century is a misnomer.
Like everybody else, THEY DID!!!!

Colt 1911s, Savage .32s and Browning pattern .38 and .380 autos were very popular well into the 20s and 30s.
For years, the NYPD did not even offer holsters. Officers carried their .32 autos and .32 revolvers in coat pockets.

What happened was two fold.
Number one, there were a lot of accidents with the striker fired single action autos.
Number two, the .32 and other rounds were found to be woefully inadequate when it comes to stopping power, and this left the 1911 and the High Power along with the occassional Luger or rare Walther p-38 the only viable semi autos for LE use for years to come.
Remember, most agencies would not allow or issue a foriegn made gun back then. Still,, many cops carreid Colts. G Gordon Liddy recalls his uncle, an FBI agent packing a Colt .38 Super. Frank Hamer used the same type of gun to take down Bonnie and Clyde.....

There is another factor too, that comes into play...

Notice that up till Cooper's era, most men who packed a 1911 packed it hammer down on a live round, sometimes half cocked.
Considering that a double action revolver is faster to draw and fire than a single action auto that is to be THUMB COCKED, the DA revolver caught on like wildfire by the forties and fifties. Also, by then, experts like Keith and Jordan were weiging in on the side of the wheelgun.
Outside of soldiers in the field, pretty much nobody was packing cocked and locked prior to Coopers ascendancy. Elmer Keith recommended it in his book Sixguns in the fifties, and people thought he was crazy.....

Something else to consider. Not every police officer is as into guns as say you or I. It was even WORSE back then in the days before "Officer Survival" became a tag word.

Most older cops (who were not into guns) would be asked why they carried a revolver instead of a military auto and instead of admitting that they didn't know would say, "Autos are jammamatics."
(You still encounter this attitude with older officers vis a vis giving bad advice to the public. I think we all know some crusy old timer who was told by some wrong headed but well meaning officer that if you shoot somebody drag them into the house and plant a knife in their hand. That is tampering with evidence and would easily get you imprisoned in this day and age.)
Seeing as how the only guns that many of them ever encountered which were autos were cheesy saturday night special types, they bought into that myth.
The reality is the autoloader (especially Colt 1911) had proven itself for reliability as early as WWI.


As for agencies issueing them, El Monte PD issued Colt .45 autos way back in the sixties according to Joseph Wambaugh.
Other agencies large and small have issued or allowed 1911s and high powers way back before the new wave of police autos arrived in the mid seventies and early 80s.
In David Morrell's novel "First Blood" Sheriff Teasle is packing a high power. It takes place in Kentucky....Many officers I know who were on duty way back in the sixties and seventies in Kentucky also packed High Powers.

So what it boils down to is this. For a brief period of time, autoloaders were popular with police at the turn of the century through the roaring 20s.
Then the DA revolver became fashionable and in time the autoloader was pretty much verboten to rank and file cops on big departments.
Not knowing why, many officers just assumed there was a valid reason.
For decades it stayed that way as LE brass tends to be hide bound and reactionary.
Personally, I think the LE world has gone in the wrong direction today. I can think of a half a dozen shooting incidents over the past few years where honest officers were castigated (by people who don't understand terminal ballistics) for shooting suspects multiple times. It probably would have not happened that way, had they been packing wheelguns in effective calibers.
I really think that with a big bore or magnum, the fight would have ended in one or two rounds and saved these officers and their departments a lot of grief....
 
I packed a 4" barreled "Highway Patrolman" model S&W .357 with adjustable rear sight. I never felt poorly armed. Later as an ordinary citizen I reloaded .38Spl.
with 5 gr. Bullseye powder behind a Elmer Keith lead hollowpoint. I didn't feel that load would be insuffecient either.

These days auto pistols are my choice but still have a .38spl and a .357mag.
but carry neither......I moved with the tide, a follower not a leader.
 
Because the 1911 was and still is an outdated innacurate piece of unreliable garbage created by a man not fit to lick the boots of Gaston Glock. Its too heavy, too expensive, too bulky and fires an outdated and weak caliber compared to the 9mm which has marginally more kinetic energy and is therefore vastly superior for some reason despite the fact that it creates a 66percent smaller wound track.

Fie on thee, 1911! Fie I say! We are the knights who say fie fie fie, the Knights of Wundernine!

:p

This message will self destruct in 10 seconds
 
In 1970 I was the first officer ever to report for duty wearing a cocked and locked,lightly customized 1911. Remember,this was in the days when there was virtually no hollowpoint ammo available in that caliber,and what was available was hard to find and rarely expanded well.
I wore a forward rake duty holster and thought I was the cock of the walk,but the old detectives were aghast that I was carrying a "cocked gun."
We furnished our own sidearms during those dark ages(no,they weren't the good old days!) and could carry anything we wanted as long as it was at least .38 special caliber.
There were 3 officers who carried Ruger single action .41 magnums,and one of those had cut down the barrell and didn't bother to have a new sight installed. Sidearms were used as clubs by a few,and this guy was one of the ones who practiced that regularly.
After a year or so I got fedup with all the negative comments and went back to my Mod 19 S&W.
Actually,it felt pretty good getting back to a revolver,at least I was able to find decent ammo,though not nearly as good as what we have now,but I also reloaded at the time.Auto or revolver? It depends entirely on the man using it.
 
Sometimes I think modern police departments would be better off going with .357 Magnum revolvers. A nice 7-shooter like the S&W 686P holds enough rounds to get the job done, fires an inarguably sufficient caliber, has a nice double-action trigger, is reliable and simple to operate for an inexperienced shooter, and strongly discourages spray-and-pray shooting both by virtue of its recoil and (arguably) small number of rounds. It's an ideal defensive weapon for someone who wants to do as little shooting as possible.

This dovetails with my thinking on the police force in the United States: The paramilitary aspect needs to be deemphasized and the role as peace-keeper should be brought to the forefront. Officer survivability doesn't require an equipment solution, it requires better training and marksmanship. I'd gladly pay the extra tax money required to give each police officer in the field at least two days of paid training a month. This isn't just out of altruism for the guys and gals in blue, but also because an accurate-shooting cop enjoys both improved safety and is safer for everyone around him or her.
 
"I'd gladly pay the extra tax money required to give each police officer in the field at least two days of paid training a month."

For my dept that would be an additional $3,024,000 a year to the budget, not including cost of ammo and targets.
Nationwide, at an average of $40/hr for every officer, that would be an additional $2,560,000,000 to your taxes.
 
Texas Rangers and the 1911

1911s may not have caught on with many police departments, but the Texas Rangers carried 1911s at one time; that's a telling endoresment of the 1911!

As the story goes, a Texas Ranger was in a small diner for his lunch break. When he got out of his booth to go pay for his food, another customer noticed his 1911, in condition one.

The customer became very agitated and asked, "Mister, do you know that your pistol is cocked?" The Ranger replied, "Yes, I know it is cocked." The customer was incredulous. "But ain't that dangerous?" he asked.

"You damn betcha it's dangerous," replied the Ranger.:D
 
"I'd gladly pay the extra tax money required to give each police officer in the field at least two days of paid training a month."

For my dept that would be an additional $3,024,000 a year to the budget, not including cost of ammo and targets.
Nationwide, at an average of $40/hr for every officer, that would be an additional $2,560,000,000 to your taxes.
Click to expand...
$3,024,000 / 24 days = departmental cost per day of $126,000. It would actually be much higher, since the increase is just for officers, not all personnel. Going with that number, though $126,000 * 365 = $45,990,000, so a 3 million bump would constitute about a 6% increase, which I would not object to paying; can't speak for others, though.

As for the average wage of $40/hr., even figuring very conservatively and not counting overtime, that's almost $80,000 a year. Where are cops paid that much?
 
I think he meant average price of $40 an hour for training cost.

"I'd gladly pay the extra tax money required to give each police officer in the field at least two days of paid training a month."
Click to expand...

When I first started to vote a man older and wiser than me said this: "Son never vote a tax on yourself. Them politicians will put enough on you without asking!"
 
"As for the average wage of $40/hr., even figuring very conservatively and not counting overtime, that's almost $80,000 a year. Where are cops paid that much?"

The $3 mil figure was for 2100 sworn officers, 2 days a month, 12 months.
$40/hr is average pay in my agency. Starting pay is just shy of $24/hr. At 20 yrs if they never get a promo and without any OT they're at $80/yr. At 24 yrs with OT they're over $100K/yr if they never get a promo. At the end of this contract in 3 yrs a 25 yr officer will be right at $100K without OT.
When we figure special detail hirebacks where someone has to reimburse my agency for officer cost we figure at a bit over $70/hr which covers their health and life insurance and retirement payments.
Average officer pay in my agency, taking into account all ranks and seniority pay, is right at $55/hr.

www.trooperpay.net
www.policepay.net
www.deputypay.net
 
Your Gun IS COCKED !!

I am not in law enforcement, but it routinely happens when I am carring 1911 at the range or openly on private property, that people come up to me and tell that my gun is cocked. Sometimes I get a lecture, and it is usually older men who feel compelled to tell, and when I don't immediatly go Condition 2, I sometimes get a lecture about how dangerous it is to carry a firearm in Condition 1. :eek:

One can imagine the reaction to a large PD going to 1911's from the press, the lawyers, and the largly ignorant public.


Kyle

PS Just say thank you and carry on. :D
 
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