With all the talk of how inadequate revolvers were and are among police. why didn't the 1911 ever take with police in the early 20th century as it did in the military as it is STILL one of the top automatics out there (even some leos choose to carry it over the 9mm and 40 cal)
How come 1911 autos never took with LEOs in the early to mid 20th century?
- Thread starter Doug.38PR
- Start date
The 1911 never caught on with the police because it was too complicated for the average cop to use. Cops went along time with revolvers because of a number of reasons.
Nobody else uses automatics so we won't
Simple to train even the least mechanical person to shoot a revolver.
Revolvers were recognized as a cop gun, pull out anything else and you were not one of them.
Automatics waste ammo
Automatics were unreliable
Automatics were a slobs weapon
And on it went. Today I don't know of a single agency that uses revolvers but they use the most simple auto to operate--Glock
Talk to em, they have complete confidence in the autos now
but twenty years ago it was unheard of to have an auto pistol.
25
Nobody else uses automatics so we won't
Simple to train even the least mechanical person to shoot a revolver.
Revolvers were recognized as a cop gun, pull out anything else and you were not one of them.
Automatics waste ammo
Automatics were unreliable
Automatics were a slobs weapon
And on it went. Today I don't know of a single agency that uses revolvers but they use the most simple auto to operate--Glock
Talk to em, they have complete confidence in the autos now
but twenty years ago it was unheard of to have an auto pistol.
25
Sir William
New member
Simple economics. Revolvers were cheaper, more reliable, more powerful, more accurate and government surplus. Many smaller towns had single action revolvers until the 1940s. I know that during the depression, Bisley Colts were often converted to 357 Magnum as a cost saving way to have the latest cartridge and keep the paid for revolvers going. The double action revolvers really didn't catch attention until S&W produced the M1902s. They were reliable and improved through the years. The Colt New Service and S&W New Century revolvers were the ultimate. They were both also produced as M1917s. Many simply did not see any need to change. Cities and towns often bought government surplus revolvers and ammunition. I feel that slowed the auto acceptance. I remember seeing S&W WWII surplus 38 S&W revolvers in holsters up until the mid 70s. This question is also not considering that early autos were black powder ammunition handicapped. A police service revolver could function with either black powder or smokeless towards the end of the 19th century. The early autos functioned poorly with black powder ammunition. The 1911 was a vast improvement in design, function and uses a powerful cartridge. They still were more expensive than a government surplus S&W 38 Special navy revolver or a Colt M1909 in 45 Government.
I remember reading somewhere that the government was selling as surplus their .45 single actions sometime around WWI and everyone knows how the Krags were sold at very low prices during the 1920's. Actually, I'm not sure what people thought a low price was that far back. During the late 1950's, and 1960's, all sorts of surplus military firearms could be purchased through the mail at what now seem like bargain prices but twenty dollars was a lot of money in 1960. My first paying job beside cutting grass was at 75 cents an hour, so I didn't have a lot of extra money.
Even so, I did buy what I could. The best thing I ever bought that way was a 1949 FN in .30-06 and I think it cost $79, which was high even then. A .45 auto (surplus) went for under $50. There were also a lot of oddball European guns for sale.
They may have been there but I don't recall seeing any M1's or M1 carbines for sale but then the army wasn't done using them. There were even water-cooled machine guns still being used in basic training when I went through.
But to get back to the .45, it may have had more to do with both cost and the weight, both being higher than an S&W M&P (carried in a swivel holster). But I understand that .45 autos became popular with a few agencies like the Texas Rangers. Supposedly they went from the single action revolver to the .45 automatic, skipping over the double action revolver entirely. I think it is interesting how a supposedly progressive but definately very active agency like the border patrol adopted a large frame (Colt New Service) revolver in .38 special.
Automatics became very popular in Europe almost overnight, though mostly in small calibers, for police use, even in Great Britain, insofar as they used firearms. These small autos saw a great deal of use during WWI by just about everyone but the British and Americans, though their use in combat is another story. Overall, I personally think the small automatics from that period are very interesting. They were popular with civilians over here as well and some very fine ones were manufactured. While some have become fairly rare, others seem to turn up all the time. Savage pocket auto's seem to be around in some numbers as well as the Colt pocket autos.
Even so, I did buy what I could. The best thing I ever bought that way was a 1949 FN in .30-06 and I think it cost $79, which was high even then. A .45 auto (surplus) went for under $50. There were also a lot of oddball European guns for sale.
They may have been there but I don't recall seeing any M1's or M1 carbines for sale but then the army wasn't done using them. There were even water-cooled machine guns still being used in basic training when I went through.
But to get back to the .45, it may have had more to do with both cost and the weight, both being higher than an S&W M&P (carried in a swivel holster). But I understand that .45 autos became popular with a few agencies like the Texas Rangers. Supposedly they went from the single action revolver to the .45 automatic, skipping over the double action revolver entirely. I think it is interesting how a supposedly progressive but definately very active agency like the border patrol adopted a large frame (Colt New Service) revolver in .38 special.
Automatics became very popular in Europe almost overnight, though mostly in small calibers, for police use, even in Great Britain, insofar as they used firearms. These small autos saw a great deal of use during WWI by just about everyone but the British and Americans, though their use in combat is another story. Overall, I personally think the small automatics from that period are very interesting. They were popular with civilians over here as well and some very fine ones were manufactured. While some have become fairly rare, others seem to turn up all the time. Savage pocket auto's seem to be around in some numbers as well as the Colt pocket autos.
ClarkEMyers
New member
Revolvers never have been inadequate
Revolvers never have been inadequate - see e.g. No Second Place Winner by Jordan or Paul Weston's books on combat shooting for police - and are adequate today. Certainly some carried the 1911 from the very beginning for law enforcement.
I'd guess that it took the modern technique of the pistol - that is Jeff Cooper - before the move to automatics combined with an acceptance of the police as paramilitary rather than officer friendly. That is the role of the police firearm and the emphasis of police training changed first - the gear followed.
Revolvers never have been inadequate - see e.g. No Second Place Winner by Jordan or Paul Weston's books on combat shooting for police - and are adequate today. Certainly some carried the 1911 from the very beginning for law enforcement.
I'd guess that it took the modern technique of the pistol - that is Jeff Cooper - before the move to automatics combined with an acceptance of the police as paramilitary rather than officer friendly. That is the role of the police firearm and the emphasis of police training changed first - the gear followed.
I guess it all depends where you live. Our local departments have been about equally split between auto's and revolvers as long as I can remember(I'm 43).
One of my first memories of a local cop was the fact that he had a satin nickel Commander (cocked and locked) in his duty holster. And I knew of several who carried SW39/59's. But most of the cops I know/knew are "gun people" and even the revolver carriers had them "tuned".
One of my first memories of a local cop was the fact that he had a satin nickel Commander (cocked and locked) in his duty holster. And I knew of several who carried SW39/59's. But most of the cops I know/knew are "gun people" and even the revolver carriers had them "tuned".
I asked a retired officer friend about that, and he said that from time to time some guy would show up with an auto. He wouldn't keep it long as the brass would gig them on the cost of having to use that new fangled copper jacketed bullet, it wasn't as accurate, it stuck out like a sore thumb at guard mount. He said the first semi-auto he remembered sticking around any length of time was a Browning HP- but he said he couldn't be sure about that.
In the early 80s our SO issued S&W 686s, but most deputies carried Colt 1911's as a backup or "cruiser" gun in case they got into bigger trouble than they could handle with thier revovlers... fit's the pattern heretofor set out and reflects the reasons they told me at the time.
The main point against the M1911, was in the PR area. The gun simply cannot be carried ready for use except in "condition 1" (cocked and locked") and a cocked and loaded handgun in a holster was considered dangerous by both the general public and by many auto fans.
The military banned not only cocked-and-locked carry but also loaded chamber carry, requiring that the slide be operated to load the pistol when necessary. This was acceptable to the military, since few soldiers were surprised by an enemy, but it was not acceptable in police work where an officer might have to return fire quickly.
Even today, single action autos like the M1911 and the BHP, are rarely used by police and I know of no department or agency that issues them. The autos carried by police are all either "double action only" (and I include guns like the Glock in that term), or DA/SA.
Jim
The military banned not only cocked-and-locked carry but also loaded chamber carry, requiring that the slide be operated to load the pistol when necessary. This was acceptable to the military, since few soldiers were surprised by an enemy, but it was not acceptable in police work where an officer might have to return fire quickly.
Even today, single action autos like the M1911 and the BHP, are rarely used by police and I know of no department or agency that issues them. The autos carried by police are all either "double action only" (and I include guns like the Glock in that term), or DA/SA.
Jim
azredhawk44
Moderator
Tacoma PD carries 1911's.
I'm sure there are several others, I just don't know...
Most 1911's are more expensive than a comparable Glock, Beretta or Sig even at reduced LE prices for bulk purchases. Add to that the fact that they are single stack and hold fewer rounds than the other auto designs out there, and they become less attractive to most PD's.
I'm sure there are several others, I just don't know...
Most 1911's are more expensive than a comparable Glock, Beretta or Sig even at reduced LE prices for bulk purchases. Add to that the fact that they are single stack and hold fewer rounds than the other auto designs out there, and they become less attractive to most PD's.
David Armstrong
Moderator
That makes an assumption that is questionable at best. Most police did not talk about revolvers being inadequate at all for most of the 20th Century. The reason for that is that they were not, and are not, inadequate. The autoloaders do offer some advantages, but it was not until the 1980's that those advantages really began to matter much. Many officers still carry revolvers, and they perform their job just fine. Also, some officers have carried autoloaders for a long time. The .38 Super was pushed as a LE round back in the 20s and 30s, and was adopted by many officers, as was the .45.
1911s have a manual of arms that just doesn't work with police procedure. To be ready to fire it must be in cocked and locked carry. Having a gun with a nice crisp trigger at 3lbs when the action turns to fistacuffs just sets the department up for a lawsuit.
Most police autos have triggers much heavier than 1911s and with good reasons. Nervouse cops shoot people so better to have a 9 pound pull than a three pound.
Finally the 1911 is a war gun and in my thinking not for taking prisoners, like the police do, but for staying alive. In war I want something that wasn't made to satisfie lawyers but to win conflict.
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Most police autos have triggers much heavier than 1911s and with good reasons. Nervouse cops shoot people so better to have a 9 pound pull than a three pound.
Finally the 1911 is a war gun and in my thinking not for taking prisoners, like the police do, but for staying alive. In war I want something that wasn't made to satisfie lawyers but to win conflict.
25
Bias, combined with some legitamite issues with Semi-autos. Took a class with a retiered NYPD officer --- well, well retierd, he ranted about autos and how they fail, have problems are unlieable, so on and so forth --- no so much from personal experaince but from the training he had had years ago --- after seeing a fair number of the modern auto designs function, and function well he was at the very liest impressed to the point to realizing the choice of a semi-auto was not compleat folly as had obviously been impressed upon min many years ago. I personally was equally impressed by what this man who had ot fired a wepon in 15 years could do with a 38 taurus snubbie he just purchased from a discount store.
The other key to the puzzle that we are taking for granted is just how good most makers of any design of auto pistol now are. This was not the case untill the 80's or so, and though some would argue that 1911's require more testing or tuning to be "proven" reliable I would argue that this testing is warranted in any combat arm, however with modern guns from the better makers there is rarely a major problem, and can go many rounds or day in the holster without much worry, This was not the case years ago and especally with the 1911, as attested to by the fact that no less than Jeff Cooper reccomended havign 3 of them --- one to shoot, a spare and one off at the smith being repaired.
The other key to the puzzle that we are taking for granted is just how good most makers of any design of auto pistol now are. This was not the case untill the 80's or so, and though some would argue that 1911's require more testing or tuning to be "proven" reliable I would argue that this testing is warranted in any combat arm, however with modern guns from the better makers there is rarely a major problem, and can go many rounds or day in the holster without much worry, This was not the case years ago and especally with the 1911, as attested to by the fact that no less than Jeff Cooper reccomended havign 3 of them --- one to shoot, a spare and one off at the smith being repaired.
Think about it. In the early 20th century, the time that this poster is referring to, there were no Glocks, Rugers, or S&W semi-automatics. Europeans preferred the semi-auto because it could be concealed easily, and were quite satisfied with the .25 and .32 ACP. The 9mm Luger was considered a military caliber. The United States had settled on the 1911 Colt, but they were still pretty rare.
The revolver held 6 rounds, the new Colt 7. The powers that be didn't trust the new-fangled autos, and everybody knew that the .38 was enough for a policeman.
As for the trigger and city lawyers, that's a relatively new deviant practice, suing for any and everything. In the early 1900's, through the 1960s, if you ran when a cop told you to stop, and you ended up shot during a scuffle, that was your problem. People still believed that wrong-doers deserved what they got.
The Texas Rangers were a little more progressive, with the 1911, the Mauser C96, and the Luger being used by men who decided that they were the way to go. It wasn't like they were issued pistols, you bought your own. Most police departments were that way, too. Revolvers were a way of life with the veteran officers, and the rookies were pointed in their direction.
I believe that the first large department to switch to semi-autos was the Iowa State Police, with the S&W Model 39, and one of the last was NYPD.
Looking at this, I believe that America with it's firearms conservatism, was what kept the revolver in officers holsters, and the .38 Special in the weapons cylinders.
The revolver held 6 rounds, the new Colt 7. The powers that be didn't trust the new-fangled autos, and everybody knew that the .38 was enough for a policeman.
As for the trigger and city lawyers, that's a relatively new deviant practice, suing for any and everything. In the early 1900's, through the 1960s, if you ran when a cop told you to stop, and you ended up shot during a scuffle, that was your problem. People still believed that wrong-doers deserved what they got.
The Texas Rangers were a little more progressive, with the 1911, the Mauser C96, and the Luger being used by men who decided that they were the way to go. It wasn't like they were issued pistols, you bought your own. Most police departments were that way, too. Revolvers were a way of life with the veteran officers, and the rookies were pointed in their direction.
I believe that the first large department to switch to semi-autos was the Iowa State Police, with the S&W Model 39, and one of the last was NYPD.
Looking at this, I believe that America with it's firearms conservatism, was what kept the revolver in officers holsters, and the .38 Special in the weapons cylinders.
Mannlicher
New member
I think that a lot of smaller towns and Sheriff depts in the South let their Officers carry a .45 ACP. Many of these smaller departments did not provide guns, and the officers bought their own.
JR47 wrote:
"I believe that the first large department to switch to semi-autos was the Iowa State Police, with the S&W Model 39, and one of the last was NYPD."
The Illinois State Police was the first large agency to go to autos (S&W 29) and to 9mm in 1968. Salt Lake City PD switched to the S&W 39 soon after.
I don't know when the Iowa SP switched to autos but they were still carrying wheel guns in the early 1980s.
"I believe that the first large department to switch to semi-autos was the Iowa State Police, with the S&W Model 39, and one of the last was NYPD."
The Illinois State Police was the first large agency to go to autos (S&W 29) and to 9mm in 1968. Salt Lake City PD switched to the S&W 39 soon after.
I don't know when the Iowa SP switched to autos but they were still carrying wheel guns in the early 1980s.
"It took quite a lot of doing and some significant shootouts to convince cops to go to autos "
I disagree - It took the TV show "Miami Vice." I firmly believe that if Sonny Crockett had used a 4 barrel blackpowder derringer that's what we'd be using today. Cops are as influenced by the media as anyone. Prior to that the only agency of size I knew of to carry autos was the Illinois State Police, and a few independent weirdos, but I can say that because I were one.
And I concur - revolvers are just fine. Probably better than fine for the average non-gunny cop.
I disagree - It took the TV show "Miami Vice." I firmly believe that if Sonny Crockett had used a 4 barrel blackpowder derringer that's what we'd be using today. Cops are as influenced by the media as anyone. Prior to that the only agency of size I knew of to carry autos was the Illinois State Police, and a few independent weirdos, but I can say that because I were one.
And I concur - revolvers are just fine. Probably better than fine for the average non-gunny cop.
Well, a lot of you are saying exactly what I have always thought about revolvers. They were not and are not inadequate. I have seen other posts here in the past asking such questions as why police went to autos and are revolvers "outdated." Many of the posters that replied in these postings agreed that the revolver (specifically the .38 Special) was "outdated" "didn't have enough stopping power" "took too long to reload" "didn't have enough capacity" "was too easy for bad guys to take away" or "the .38 too often wouldn't stop the bad guy so police went to 9mm and .40 cal" Hence the opening line of my original post "With all the talk of how" (not necessarily my views but what I have heard others on this forum say.) So I decided to post the obvious question, with autos being around for over 100 years, why all of a sudden in the late 1980s are revolvers "inadequate" as a defensive weapon.
I am not a policeman, but I carry a revolver of my own. A nice plain jane four inch .38 special OP. I don't "feel out gunned with it" or "inadequate" with my friend next to me having a Springfield .45 Micro or a .40 caliber with 14 rounds.
My way of thinking, if you can't do what you need to do within 6 shots then you might as well throw the gun at the bad guy and run. Gang situations? Well who is going to take the 6 shots while the other 6 beat me up. Besides, if you are that outgunned and outnumbered you will die even if you have a 12 round high cap .45 acp auto. Also, most gangs and crowds will take off running in all directions once the first shot is fired.
I think one poster here made a point when speaking of Miami Vice. TV and movies do have a pychological impact on a lot of people. And seeing Keanue Reeves in The Matrix bouncing off the walls firing a jillion or trillion rounds out of his two Glock 9mm would make a couch potato with a revolver next to him feel a little inferior. Or seeing Mel Gibson spraying his 9mm Berretta at snipers, helecopters and drug dealers in the Lethel Weapon movies while belittling Danny Glover's S&W Model-19 .357
I am not a policeman, but I carry a revolver of my own. A nice plain jane four inch .38 special OP. I don't "feel out gunned with it" or "inadequate" with my friend next to me having a Springfield .45 Micro or a .40 caliber with 14 rounds.
My way of thinking, if you can't do what you need to do within 6 shots then you might as well throw the gun at the bad guy and run. Gang situations? Well who is going to take the 6 shots while the other 6 beat me up. Besides, if you are that outgunned and outnumbered you will die even if you have a 12 round high cap .45 acp auto. Also, most gangs and crowds will take off running in all directions once the first shot is fired.
I think one poster here made a point when speaking of Miami Vice. TV and movies do have a pychological impact on a lot of people. And seeing Keanue Reeves in The Matrix bouncing off the walls firing a jillion or trillion rounds out of his two Glock 9mm would make a couch potato with a revolver next to him feel a little inferior. Or seeing Mel Gibson spraying his 9mm Berretta at snipers, helecopters and drug dealers in the Lethel Weapon movies while belittling Danny Glover's S&W Model-19 .357