How can people be so blind..

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Danzig

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That they can't see (maybe they don't want to?) that our very presence in the middle east is part of what is antagonizing the muslim world???

Nobody is saying that it is the ONLY reason that we are so hated..but to deny that it is a major cause of our troubles has got to have their head buried in the sand.

And because it's an irritant to those people, it only makes since (if we truly care about making our nation safer) that we remove that irritant. It will go a long way toward easing the tensions between their people and ours.
 
From the little I know (which is very limited), even backing Israel is grounds for Muslims to hate us.
I, however, think that it is good to support Israel.

Even if we pulled out of the middle east, any true Muslim person would still hate us.
Why? Because their religion teaches convert or die.

The only peaceful Muslim is the same as a Christian who is spiritually "dead".
 
Do you apply the same standard for the presence of middle eastern people here? The Muslem people here are not beheaded by the Christians or the Jews. Does their mere presence stir up hatred? I don't understand, are you implying that all non-Christians should be expelled from the USA too? What would that be called here? Removing an Irritant? We are more accepting than that. Should we expect the same in return?
 
You are right CmpsdNoMore. There are many reasons why our nation is hated by other people in other parts of the world. Some of them we have no control over. Some we do.

If our foreign policy is contributing to the problem..then the OBVIOUS solution is to change that policy. It's not about burying our collective "head" in the sand. It's about opening our eyes and acknowledging that the foreign policy of the last 50 or so years hasn't worked and that it's time to try something new.
 
People hate us because we are different. We have freedoms they do not understand. They believe women are not fully human, just look at the laws and their treatment.
They are going to hate us always, it is the nature of their religion and life.
If we do things to make them like us then we will be hiding in caves before long.
 
Our "presence" in the middle east goes much farther than just having troops there. Don't be so naive and brainwashed to think that the radical Islamofacists didn't care about the US until "Bush started his war". Why then did we get attacked on 9/11? Did we have troops in Iraq on 9/10? Nope. What about the first world trade center attack? No Iraq war then either. Maybe you mean when Iraq attacked our allies? I suppose we aren't supposed to honor our friendships in fear of pissing others off eh? And of course there is Israel. There are a lot of people in the US and abroad who think we should not support Israel. I hope they realize that if that were the case, every Jew in that nation would be dead within a year. Our support is the only think keeping them alive. So not only would we(you) have the blood of countless Jews on our(your) hands for abandoning them to die at the hands of the rest of that region, you would also be showing the world that the US doesn't really give a damn about anyone else, or if they live or die.

Maybe you can live with that, maybe not. But would it change anything?

NOPE. Because we live in the information age. "The West" will be in the middle east forever. Why? Because of TV, Newspapers, Internet, Music, Movies, Trade, etc... They are exposed to our culture. THAT is what they hate. They hate our culture. They hate seeing American TV shwos with 16 year old girls wearing bikinis. They hate that our culture has accepted homosexuality. They hate that our culture has accepted women as equals. They hate that our culture is free to be rude, obnoxious, arrogant, sinful, secular, and dirty. We as Americans are free to do all those things. You can eat what you want, watch what you want, say what you want, be what you want, marry who you want, go to church where you want, wear what you want, and have sex with whomever you want. And there is no Mullah or Sheik telling us it's wrong. And they hate it. And what's more, they hate that their culture is being exposed to that.


So, OP, you're wrong. You will never get the US out of the middle east unless we as an entire planet go back to a B.C. level of technology where villages and regions conversed with each other maybe once in a lifetime. But since that's impossible, the world is going to have to get used to different cultures being everywhere. And some people hate that idea. And some of those people, are willing to kill because of it.



Pulling US troops out of Iraq won't do jack #### to change their minds about us. Keeping us there just might. We leave, all they see is the bad on TV or what their leaders choose to show them about us. But if we stay, they get to see our generosity and kindness firsthand. They've got every leader and media outlet they have ever seen portraying us as godless monsters. Maybe PVTs and SPCs handing out bottles water and toys can help change that. It think it's worth a shot.
 
That they can't see (maybe they don't want to?) that our very presence in the middle east is part of what is antagonizing the muslim world???
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Um...because it's not true?

The extremists are expansionist.

Did you not catch the 80,000 people in a stadium in Pakistan calling for a global Islamic caliphate? The signs held up showing all the world flags, including the US one, funneling into the Islamic banner?

How about the "scholars" who say that they will only be satisfied when America's Constitution is superseded by Sharia law? That that is the inevitable future of the world, Islam will be all, there is no god but allah, period, no questioning that, no disagreeing, it will happen?

How about the 40% of Muslims in the UK who want Sharia law in predominantly Muslim areas? Who refuse to assimilate? Who cause apostates who convert to other religions to fear death?

Phillipines...the whole southern half is now "that's a beheadin'" country, and missionaries from the north are regularly kidnapped and taken for ransom by Muslim extremists...or just brutally killed. They also kill schoolteachers. Even an ice-cream truck vendor, beheaded. Why? Ask them.

How about elsewhere in Europe? Did Theo Van Gogh do anything to the Middle East that got him killed by a Muslim? Or did he just inadvertently offend a Muslim? How about the Danish cartoonists, with riots calling for them to be beheaded?

In the Middle East, women are not people. Suspected gays are hung. You okay with that?

See, you're mistaking a bloodthirsty death cult called "radical Islam" for a rational culture that can be negotiated with.

And when you do that, it makes them laugh. Because if you appease them, it means you're weak and should be killed. Only strength is respected.

Start thinking 4th century, not 21st, if you want to see what we're facing. As it is now, you're hopefully naive. If you want to lower your own head to the chopping block, go right ahead, but don't expect the rest of us to be there with you. We'll be busy defending Western civilization from a virulently spreading evil that's creeping across the globe, corrupting Islam into a violent deathcult, radicalizing young Muslim males into suicide bombers, and bringing death and suffering wherever it goes.

Go ahead and think you can reason with people who truly think it's right and good to saw someone's head off with a rusty blade while yelling "ALLAHALLAHALLAH". Just don't be surprised if someday the last thing you hear in a "decadent American mall" is someone shouting that their god is the greatest, then an explosion.
 
Don't be so naive and brainwashed to think that the radical Islamofacists didn't care about the US until "Bush started his war". Why then did we get attacked on 9/11? Did we have troops in Iraq on 9/10? Nope.
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No, but we were building permanant bases in Saudi Arabia. Last I checked, there were no Muslim nations maintaining a military presence in North America.
In case you forgot, that's why Al Qaeda turned on us. You don't think a few Americans wouldn't go "Red Dawn" if Iran began establishing bases in North America?

Maybe you mean when Iraq attacked our allies? I suppose we aren't supposed to honor our friendships in fear of pissing others off eh?
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Minor technicality, but Kuwait wasn't our ally. Inasmuch as 'alliances' had anything to do with it, Saddam was threatening our European allies' oil supply. I'm not real clear on why they couldn't handle that problem themselves.

I hope they realize that if that were the case, every Jew in that nation would be dead within a year. Our support is the only think keeping them alive.
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Garbage, as the entire region has discovered on multiple occasions. They have an extremely professional and capable military, their own defense industry, and nukes. They don't need our help.

NOPE. Because we live in the information age. "The West" will be in the middle east forever. Why? Because of TV, Newspapers, Internet, Music, Movies, Trade, etc... They are exposed to our culture. THAT is what they hate.
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Nope. The OP was right. They have been exposed to western culture for the last 50 years. It wasn't a problem until very recently when we began establishing a permanant presence in their holy lands.

And of course our beef isn't with Islam or even with radical Islam. It is with terrorists. We can either continue the present course (radicalizing the moderates) or we can knock it off (denying the terrorists their cause and severing their logistic tail).
We have tried it your way these last 6 years. All we have to show for it is a weakened military and a stronger enemy. Like it or not, we ARE going to try something different in 2009, because our next President is not going to be a pro-Iraq war Republican and both houses will be owned by the Dems.
 
No, but we were building permanant bases in Saudi Arabia. Last I checked, there were no Muslim nations maintaining a military presence in North America.
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We're there with the permission of the Royal Family. They invited us there. It's not like it was against their will. They could turn us out anytime, too.

In case you forgot, that's why Al Qaeda turned on us. You don't think a few Americans wouldn't go "Red Dawn" if Iran began establishing bases in North America?
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Funny you mentioned Saudi Arabia. Saudis can come to America and build all the mosques they want, freedom of religion, but did you know that it's illegal to build a church in Saudia Arabia, or even hold a church service? You'd be arrested by the government and possibly executed.

An Iranian can come to America and say anything they want, against the government, about religion, they can even say they're gay. Nothing will happen. If an American went to Iran and did that, they'd vanish. Quickly.

Did you not know that, or is it just one of those facts that your sort likes to forget?
 
There are lots of other countries that have similar cultures, etc. I don't think bin Laden picked the US out of a hat.

By his own account, KSM's animus toward the United States stemmed not from his experiences there as a student, but rather from his violent disagreement with US foreign policy favoring Israel.

- 9/11 Commission Report
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"The sons of Adam are accountable for all lies with these exceptions: During war because war is deception, to reconcile among two quarreling men, and for a man to appease his wife."

Anyone who takes Bin Laden's word as anything more than propaganda is, indeed, what has generally been termed a "useful idiot".
 
People need to get to know Islam better ... Bin Laden didn't "pick" us; Radical Islam is out to rule the world. Eurabia will be first ... Islam is not a peaceful religion, and anybody who believes it is needs to educate themselves ... Liberals strengthen out enemies when they destroy our military efforts in Iraq; the best defense against Bin Laden is the rule of law and voting in a Middle Eastern country. Once Hillary takes over, that hope is finished ...

----

When they knock on your front door,
How you gonna come?
With your hands on your head
Or on the trigger of your gun?
 
We're there with the permission of the Royal Family. They invited us there. It's not like it was against their will. They could turn us out anytime, too.
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Permission of the Royal Family is not the same as permission from the people of Saudi Arabia. And considering that it's considered the Holy Land for all of Islam, it certainly doesn't count as permission from Muslim's everywhere.

Nope. The OP was right. They have been exposed to western culture for the last 50 years. It wasn't a problem until very recently when we began establishing a permanant presence in their holy lands.
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Actually, it was a problem. Has been for more like 30 years (at least). The question is how big of a problem...this is calculus, not arithmetic. The question is whether "being exposed" to our culture will have the average radical Muslim cursing our name from his home in Crapistan, maybe doing what he can to harass our citizens/interests there, or whether it will convince him and some of his friends to come over here on a suicide mission to blow us up.

Seems like the more we meddle in their region (including permanent bases, especially in Saudi Arabia) the greater the number of people who will be motivated to do such. While we'll likely never get the "people who want to come to American on suicide missions" number to zero, it's not like it's impossible to reduce it through measures that would have little impact on our national security. Unless we're saying we can't project power quite capably from Turkey or Kuwait (or the Mediterranean Sea and Indian Ocean).

Did you not know that, or is it just one of those facts that your sort likes to forget?
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Actually, I'd say that none of it was relevant. I'll let the original poster answer for himself, though.

Um...because it's not true?

The extremists are expansionist.

etc., etc.
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Nothing whips up a scare like a good mongerin'.

How about elsewhere in Europe? Did Theo Van Gogh do anything to the Middle East that got him killed by a Muslim? Or did he just inadvertently offend a Muslim? How about the Danish cartoonists, with riots calling for them to be beheaded?
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You really need to go look up "inadvertently." Van Gogh was quite vocal about his opinions on Islam as a whole...he wrote a book about it, made a film about it, and was quite vocal in public statements about it.

Though I'm largely in agreement on you with this one, in that this shows the dangers of allowing radical Islam to flourish in our society. Then again, I'm not sure I'm willing to do away with freedom of religion until they decide to attack or call for attacks against others...but then, that's usually where I draw the "radical" line. But until then, what are you gonna do?

See, you're mistaking a bloodthirsty death cult called "radical Islam" for a rational culture that can be negotiated with.
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And you seem to be mistaking "radical Islam" for a majority of Muslims...which, despite your stadium calling for a global Caliphate, I've still seen little evidence of.

Of course, the more run-of-the-mill Muslims you kill (or ruin the lives of) trying to fight "radical Islam" the more wind up in its ranks. Funny, that.

We'll be busy defending Western civilization from a virulently spreading evil that's creeping across the globe, corrupting Islam into a violent deathcult, radicalizing young Muslim males into suicide bombers, and bringing death and suffering wherever it goes.
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Oh, wait...maybe you do realize there is a difference. You just fail to realize that our own actions can actually help push otherwise reasonable Muslims into the radicals' grasp. Funny how when you kill somebody's family suddenly that one guy screaming for your blood starts to sound more reasonable.


Of course, the only thing I've really said in this post is that the issue isn't quite as simple as either of you are trying to make it out to be. Which is neither uncommon nor news. So carry on.
 
If there is any lover in the world, 0 Muslim, it is I.
If there is any believer, infidel, or Christian hermit, it is I.
The wine, the cup-bearer, the musician, the instrument and the music,
The beloved, the candle, the liquor and the inebriation, it is I.
The seventy-two religious sects in the world
Do not really exist;
I swear by God every religious sect-it is I.
Earth, air, water and fire: do you know what they are?
Earth, air, water and fire-and the soul as well; it is I
Truth and falsehood, good and evil, pleasure and suffering, beginning and end,
Knowledge, learning, asceticism, devotion and faith-it is I.
Be assured that the fire of hell and its flames,
Paradise, Eden and the angels of heaven-it is I.
Heaven and earth and all they hold: angels, demons, and men - it is I.

-Jalal ad-Din Rumi

Only through understanding of mindsets beyond our own can we as a society ever hope to co-exist in this world.
 
We're a war-making people. The Muslims are willing to fight us. OK. Great. We'll crush them as we've crushed every enemy. Who'll be willing to sign up after that? I don't know. But we'll fight anyone who's willing to fight us. That's part of who we are. Don't like that? Move to Canada.


Or wait 100 years. The civil war should have started by then. Guess who'll win. (hint: the ones who are good at fighting)
 
Only through understanding of mindsets beyond our own can we as a society ever hope to co-exist in this world.
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Yes, a radical culture that regards women as chattel and gays as worthy of only torture and death.

Tolerating intolerance in the name of tolerance makes you an enabler of that evil.
 
Yes, a radical culture that regards women as chattel and gays as worthy of only torture and death.

Tolerating intolerance in the name of tolerance makes you an enabler of that evil.
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Your statements illustrate that you understand little about the subject you are speaking about.

You understand nothing about the role of women in Islam. What you are spouting is not Islam but instead what some govts have done with Islam. It is similar to calling the Spanish Inquisition Catholicism.

You need to do a little reading. http://www.jamaat.org/islam/WomanIslam.html
 
Gee, I'm having a real hard time seeing what team you're batting for, rellascout. :rolleyes:

(oh, wait, extremists ban games like that, too...)
 
Why the personal attacks Mandewolf? It takes about 2 posts for you to go right for what team I am on. You call me an enabler of that evil.

I am on the team fighting for freedom of religion for everyone not just the ones I belong to. (By the way I am an atheist.) I believe that we a better off understanding the world we live in versus trying to make the world more like us.
 
I'm fine with leaving the middle east completely. They want our food and technology as much as we want their oil. They will trade with us and to some extent, we will be there forever. I think being there with guns is inflamatory though. Being there with businessmen is constructive. Being there with roughnecks and technicians is positive.

We need to build trade with these folks. We should however keep the present Bush doctrine which is either you are with us or with our enemies. We should DECLARE war against Al Qaida wherever it is, its leaders and its followers and go to any corner of the world to seek vengeance for 9/11. That being said, I do not believe in a war on an adjective (terror, poverty etc.). You declare war against people, organizations and states. You grant letters of marquis and let anybody and everybody have a crack at your enemies (bring back Executive Outcomes and other PMC's).

You must make the world know that we are your friend until you attack us or our people and then you will have a hard time buying life insurance. That is a constitutional approach and it works. What we've done in the past number of years is not a workable solution. At least it is very expensive to maintain. I believe if you put a one billion dollar bounty on OBL or any other notable terrorist, you will find somebody or some government who will collect. I also think you will have a difficult time finding a lot of Americans, Libertarian, Republican nor even Democrats who would object to such a bounty if it brought him to vengeance (though I could be wrong on the Democrats since anything Bush does seems to be evil to them).
 
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