101combatvet
New member
YouTube is the first problem for accurate information. Some of what I see on there is just idiotic.
How are cartridges defined as obsolete?
- Thread starter Shadow9mm
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Age alone is not a factor. .45 Colt and .45-70 are both still quite popular and both came out in 1873. Popularity has risen and fallen and risen again over the years but both have been popular enough to have remained in production.
Black powder was "obsolete" well over a century ago, but is still made and we still use it.
When ever someone declares a round "obsolete" do pay attention to what they are pushing as its replacement, and why.
Black powder was "obsolete" well over a century ago, but is still made and we still use it.
When ever someone declares a round "obsolete" do pay attention to what they are pushing as its replacement, and why.
And that right there is the definition of obsolete. Are they commonly purchased? Age has nothing to do with it. 45 Colt has been around since 1873. The 44-40 and 38-40 came along a few years later. The 303 Savage came along even later. The 22 Savage High Power came along even later. The newer ones are obsolete, but the 45 Colt is going strong. Date of introduction has absolutely NOTHING to do with obsolescence, it is how many people are buying the cartridge, which tells the manufacturers what to make. No or very low demand? Then the cartridge is obsolete. I could mention a dozen cartridges introduced over the past 50 years that are obsolete, and several older ones that are still going strong. When is the last time you saw a box of 300 TC on the shelf? Can you say 30-30? I knew you could.
With cartridges, commercially "obsolete" is a POPULARITY CONTEST. Nothing more, and nothing less.
Both the .45 Colt and the .45-70's popularity had declined quite a bit over the years, in favor of newer rounds that did things "better". Then when as their centennial approached, a lot of people "rediscovered" them, and realized that they still do what they did very well, and popular interest increased. The market responded by once again producing new guns, and that made them even more popular rounds and that has continued to this day.
Cowboy Action shooting has revived a number of "obsolete" rounds, as well. Cap & Ball guns (and other period muzzle loaders) got a huge boost in the 60s with the centennial of the Civil War. And, they're still pretty popular today.
Today's "obsolete" round could well be tomorrows "nostalgia king of the hill".
Both the .45 Colt and the .45-70's popularity had declined quite a bit over the years, in favor of newer rounds that did things "better". Then when as their centennial approached, a lot of people "rediscovered" them, and realized that they still do what they did very well, and popular interest increased. The market responded by once again producing new guns, and that made them even more popular rounds and that has continued to this day.
Cowboy Action shooting has revived a number of "obsolete" rounds, as well. Cap & Ball guns (and other period muzzle loaders) got a huge boost in the 60s with the centennial of the Civil War. And, they're still pretty popular today.
Today's "obsolete" round could well be tomorrows "nostalgia king of the hill".
ligonierbill
New member
If I'm loadin' it, it's probably obsolete. But then, so am I!
Guns are durable items. They get passed on. Shooting is fun. Hunting cartridges effective 100 years ago are still effective.
My 30-40 Krag,vintage 1898, might be considered obsolete but it will make venison as well as it did in 1921 .
I value it for a cast bullet platform. IMO,few successful cartridges become functioally obsolete.
But the gun and ammo manufacturers do not exist as non-profit organizations.
Bean counting gurus study orders and numbers,. How much cartridge brass strip do we have? Whats the maintenance schedule on 5.56 dies? We have an order for 40 million rounds of 40 S+W for the EPA? Well,its money.
Maybe,right now, with the raw brass stock they can get they run 3 shifts and can't keep up with orders for the top 10 cartridges. Like 223,308,30-30- 9mm .45..357.etc. Likely I will wait quite a while for a run of 30-40 krag,
Production tooling wears out. The 30-40 dies might be from 1957. The press format likely changed. New tooling is a big capital investment.
Management has fiduciary responsibility to shareholders.
"Service to the shooters" Yeah We do what we can.
A perfectly good cartridge might not find a way into the production schedule.
Is it obsolete?
My 30-40 Krag,vintage 1898, might be considered obsolete but it will make venison as well as it did in 1921 .
I value it for a cast bullet platform. IMO,few successful cartridges become functioally obsolete.
But the gun and ammo manufacturers do not exist as non-profit organizations.
Bean counting gurus study orders and numbers,. How much cartridge brass strip do we have? Whats the maintenance schedule on 5.56 dies? We have an order for 40 million rounds of 40 S+W for the EPA? Well,its money.
Maybe,right now, with the raw brass stock they can get they run 3 shifts and can't keep up with orders for the top 10 cartridges. Like 223,308,30-30- 9mm .45..357.etc. Likely I will wait quite a while for a run of 30-40 krag,
Production tooling wears out. The 30-40 dies might be from 1957. The press format likely changed. New tooling is a big capital investment.
Management has fiduciary responsibility to shareholders.
"Service to the shooters" Yeah We do what we can.
A perfectly good cartridge might not find a way into the production schedule.
Is it obsolete?
IMhO a very astute observation.
P.S. If anybody was waiting for the big influx of cheap copper and nickel from the up North Minnesota mine...well a 20 year kabosh was just put on that. On the other hand if you're pining for a wilderness adventure the Minnesota Boundry Waters Canoe Area is should be available in its pristine condition for quite a while.
P.P.S. That is unless the Climate Change people are correct and then the world ends in about 9 to 10 years.
Any cartridge might be classified as "perfectly good". 44 Evans. 45 Schofield. 41 Colt. But perfectly good doesn't mean anything to commercial operations, they are in it for MONEY, so it has to be something people will buy, and not just one box here or there, manufacturers want ROI. Taking 2-3 hours to set up a machine and then running it for 1 hour doesn't make sense. OK, none of that matters! Manufacturers want to make money, not shoot guns! If it doesn't make financial sense, they won't make it! That means if you want to shoot it and nobody makes ammo for it, you gotta make it.
I used to work for a guy who made obsolete ammo 45 years ago. We made 8mm Lebel, we made 401 Herters Super Mag, we made 405 Winchester, we made 35 WSL and 351 WSL. We made just about anything you could name. Some was easy-peasy, some was just downright hard to make. Forming, base-stripping, drawing, turning rims, working with new brass we annealed, new brass we used as it was, base stripping (using a die to remove material from the head or base of the cartridge, it was usually slow and difficult. It was cool, but it made it hard to get the brass you wanted to get out of it in a reasonable amount of time. And then you got the whining guy "oh, that's so expensive! I just wanted to shoot grandpa's old rifle just to remember him"or some such. If you have an old-timer, go ahead, pay what somebody wants for their ammo, it's easier than making it.
Savvy_Jack
New member
Obsolete
adjective
1.no longer produced or used; out of date.
"the disposal of old and obsolete machinery"
There ya go right there!
adjective
1.no longer produced or used; out of date.
"the disposal of old and obsolete machinery"
There ya go right there!
OldManMontgomery
New member
I didn't slog through all the comments, but one specific meaning in the military (and likely militaries of all nations) is when any equipment is replaced by a 'better' (and that's a whole other discussion) item, it is considered 'obsolete'.
By that viewpoint, the Trapdoor .45-70, the M1911A1 and the M60 machinegun are all obsolete. By my viewpoint, not hardly.
By that viewpoint, the Trapdoor .45-70, the M1911A1 and the M60 machinegun are all obsolete. By my viewpoint, not hardly.
The M60 machine gun was "obsolete" (in the sense that there were better designs) before it was even adopted. They "adopted" (aka "stole") good ideas from several other guns and put them together in about the worst way possible.
"Obsolete" means a lot of things, depending on your point of view. Commercial success is just one of them. CURRENT military service is another....
"Obsolete" means a lot of things, depending on your point of view. Commercial success is just one of them. CURRENT military service is another....