How are cartridges defined as obsolete?

S

Shadow9mm

New member
Having a conversation in the comments on youtube in which 45auto was deemed obsolete. Got me to thinking as to what obsolete is, and how it is applied to the cartridge world.

Many cartridges that are in common use are quite old. The newer cartridges are based on similar technology. According to this article these are the 7 most popular handgun cartridges. https://backfire.tv/7-most-popular-handgun-cartridges-pros-and-cons/

22lr, 1884, 138yrs old
9mm Luger, 1901, 121yrs old
40 S&W, 1990, 32yrs old
45 Auto, 1904, 118yrs old
38spl,1898, 124yrs old
357 magnum, 1935, 87yrs old
380 auto, 1908, 114yrs old

So I cannot believe age alone is a factor.

So by what criteria is a cartridge defined as obsolete? how does one define or quantify "in common use".
 
You could say a cartridge is obsolete when no commercial arms are chambered for it, or when ammunition is no longer manufactured (usually following the first by a few years).
 
We could split hairs over the definition.

Age? Well, you had better figure "success" in there,too. The B-52 bomber, the Chinook helicopter, and the A-10 ,the AR-M-4 are all pretty "Old"

Are the 22 lr, 9mm,45 Acp, 38/357, 7x57,30-30,30-06 etc,obsolete?

What makes the 6.5 Manbun "cutting edge" and the 6.5x55 obsolete?

Right now,the firearm and ammo companies are running full capacity,trying to produce what there is a demand for.

Its not obsolete if there are folks with money hungry to buy.

You might say (with some justification) the 30-40 Krag and 348 Win are obsolete. But the 30-40 is one of the best cast bullet handload cartridges ever. If you have a mold and a Krag, you can keep shooting.

Old guns can last a long time. Folks keep shooting them.

Mall Marketing identifies the "Movers" Are all the slower movers obsolete?
 
Guns are "durable goods," they last a long time.
One major sales technique is to convince you that your perfectly good stuff is "obsolete."
 
1.) when firearms are no longer chambered for it

2.) when ammo is no longer manufactured for that round .

3.) when it is listed in the book Cartridges Of the World in the chapters either Obsolete Military or Obsolete Sporting Cartridges .

when all three are met ... it's obsolete .

In the words of a famous man ... it ain't obsolete till it's obsolete .

Buy a copy of Cartridges Of the World and see just what is and what isn't ... obsolete ... a most interesting read !
Gary
 
gwpercle said:
1.) when firearms are no longer chambered for it

2.) when ammo is no longer manufactured for that round .

3.) when it is listed in the book Cartridges Of the World in the chapters either Obsolete Military or Obsolete Sporting Cartridges .

when all three are met ... it's obsolete .

In the words of a famous man ... it ain't obsolete till it's obsolete .

Buy a copy of Cartridges Of the World and see just what is and what isn't ... obsolete ... a most interesting read !
Gary
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I have an older copy of cartridges of the world. great read. Hoping to pick up a current edition along with a copy of gun digest 77th edition in the near future.
 
I would stick to the "no guns being produced in that caliber any more" definition for obsolete. Small scale production continues for some of the oldest cartridges.
 
More than one reasonable definition:


1. When no new firearms are being made in the caliber.
2. When new ammunition is no longer available for sale; except perhaps from specialty makers. (This is my personal opinion.)
3. When one or more component required to handload the cartridge is no longer available for sale.

I think it's also possible for cartridges to be brought back from obsolescence.
 
Do make the distinction between different degrees of "obsolete", and "currently out of production". And also remember lots of people say "obsolete" when they should be saying "obsolescent". ;)

You might take a look at the language used by the govt defining Curios & Relic firearms, and what it says about ammunition no longer made or available being one of the factors used in determining status.

I may be a bit of an oddball on this, but I don't consider anything "obsolete" as long as it can perform its original function.

Most folks would think a buggy whip is obsolete, as most people have cars, but if you have a horse and buggy, its not obsolete....

Before the panicdemics, (panic buying for any reasons) thanks to the interest in old rounds created by Cowboy Action shooting a lot of formerly "obsolete" rounds that had been LONG out of production began to be produced again, (in small amounts and at premium prices)
 
I may be a bit of an oddball on this, but I don't consider anything "obsolete" as long as it can perform its original function.
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With that definition, nothing ever becomes obsolete. Also, that just redefines "obsolete" to be the opposite of "functional".
 
It's amazing how long the .45-70 has been popular...
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About 20 years.

The 45-70 was introduced in 1873 and by the mid 1890's was obsolete and outside of the military was never popular. From the 1890's until 1972 it was virtually unused by anyone.

Marlin re-introduced the round in 1972, but it took 20-25 years before it really started to become popular.

Everyone has their own definition of obsolete. To me when a round is no longer readily available in factory loaded ammo and handloading becomes the best option I consider it obsolete. But as with the 45-70 that can change. Obsolete rounds have been known to revive.
 
I think everything I shoot has been rendered "obsolete" in the opinion of a writer or aficionado of some new cartridge that has rendered what I use as obsolete. Funny how obsolete does not necessarily mean that it isn't functional or useful. No, age isn't a determining factor, but age may be a factor for reasons that ligonierbill mentioned.

For the most part when I see people claiming that this caliber or this gun is obsolete, it is usually more of a slur than an actual statement of fact (related to Jim Watson's comment). I can't begin to tell you have many times I have been told that my 1911s in .45 acp are obsolete by people shooting other types of guns or calibers they feel are superior. Yet 1911s and .45 acp ammo continue to sell like hotcakes, which I strongly feel are obsolete compared to waffles, but this isn't about comparisons because people tend to cherry pick features they like best.

When I got into 6.5 Grendel shooting for hunting, I was told that I should have gone with a 6.8 SPC because 6.5 Grendel was inferior to 6.8 SPC. The Grendel folks claimed that 6.8 was inferior. In reality, they were making inequitable comparisons of different features and performance of the calibers, yet somehow they both manage to succeed despite their apparently vast inadequacies. Other calibers have come along that have been proclaimed as "Grendel killers" such as the .227 Valkerie, rendering the Grendel obsolete, yet there seems to be no love lost on the Grendel and the Valkerie seems fine, though maybe not yet as popular.

I think for many laymen, that the term of obsolete basically translates into "I don't use it and I see no reason to use it given what I already have." That is a personal choice/perspective/rationalization and not actually a feature of the cartridge.

I have trouble calling anything in production, for which you can find parts, and that is currently in use to be "obsolete."
 
gwpercle said:
1.) when firearms are no longer chambered for it

2.) when ammo is no longer manufactured for that round .

3.) when it is listed in the book Cartridges Of the World in the chapters either Obsolete Military or Obsolete Sporting Cartridges .

when all three are met ... it's obsolete .

In the words of a famous man ... it ain't obsolete till it's obsolete .

Buy a copy of Cartridges Of the World and see just what is and what isn't ... obsolete ... a most interesting read !
Gary
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Of all those listed I would say that #2 would be the absolute.

As far as a firearm, there is usually a gunsmith floating around out there that can build the weapon you want.

That isn’t true as far as the ammo is concerned, or components either.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
It's amazing how long the .45-70 has been popular...
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About 20 years.
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I strongly disagree with that. It's been popular a LOT longer than that.

The 45-70 was introduced in 1873 and by the mid 1890's was obsolete and outside of the military was never popular.
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The .45-70 was adopted in 1873, and replaced as the front line service round beginning in 1892, but remained in military service for several years afterwards. It was the primary arm of the National Guard units that fought in the Spanish American war in 1898. After the 30-40 Krag finished replacing the .45-70s in military service the .45-70 were sold to the public, (primarily through the NRA) and were in constant use by deer hunters (particularly in the lower economic classes) for generations after that.
Looking only a sales of new rifles in .45-70s between the post WWI and 1960s period gives a distorted picture of the .45-70s use.

IT is true that there were very few new US made .45-70 during that period, the main one being the Winchester 1886, which was in production in .45-70 until 1936. .45-70 ammo was in constant production by all the big ammo makers until the Second World war interrupted it, and ammo production resumed after the war and continues to this day.

From the 1890's until 1972 it was virtually unused by anyone.
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This is simply not true. While not in the top few most popular rounds by sales , the fact that ammo was in constant production puts the lie to the claim that "it was virtually unused".

Marlin re-introduced the round in 1972, but it took 20-25 years before it really started to become popular.
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Marlin did NOT "re-introduce" the round at all. What Marlin did was re-introduce a rifle named "the 1895" in .45-70, to capitalize on the centennial of the round. Marlin's "new" 1895 is a mechanically different rifle from their original 1895 sharing primarily only lever action, and the name and cartridge.

Additionally, it didn't take 20-25 years for it to become popular, and even in 72 it wasn't the only .45-70 available. H&R was producing both their "Topper" break action and also their reproduction Trap Door Springfield during and I think a bit before that time, and since the late 60s, converted Siamese Mausers were available from Navy Arms as well, and in 83 Ruger created the .45-70 No.3 rifle and put the .45-70 into their No.1 rifles as well.

If anything, the .45-70 is even more popular now with several models of rifle and a couple of handguns available in that chambering.
I wouldn't call that obsolete.
 
Agreed. Ammo for obsolete firearms has been produced and available for decades in some calibers, long after any gun was chambered in said caliber. It is definitely NOT and ammunition question
 
Geezerbiker said:
It's amazing how long the .45-70 has been popular...
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It's even more amazing how long the .45 ACP has been "obsolete," and yet every year large numbers of manufacturers churn out thousands of NEW 1911s chambered in .45 ACP, and every year ammo makers churn out hundreds of thousands of rounds of .45 ACP ammunition. Yes, the .45 ACP is obsolete -- but the industry apparently hasn't received the memo.
 
One reason this draws a lot of discussion is that the basic technology hasn't changed since the late 19th century. Electronics become obsolete in months, but the 45 Colt I shoot today isn't that different from what the Earps and Clantons were shooting. OK, balloon head cases.

We have more variety and better smokeless powder now, but the 30-30, 6.5x55 and others used "schnee" powder from the beginning. We have more variety and better bullets now, but "metal patch" bullets were there in the 1890s.

So "obsolete" gets fuzzy. Is the 350 Rem Mag obsolete, or just a commercial failure?
 
Shadow9mm said:
Having a conversation in the comments on youtube in which 45auto was deemed obsolete. Got me to thinking as to what obsolete is, and how it is applied to the cartridge world.

Many cartridges that are in common use are quite old. The newer cartridges are based on similar technology. According to this article these are the 7 most popular handgun cartridges. https://backfire.tv/7-most-popular-handgun-cartridges-pros-and-cons/

22lr, 1884, 138yrs old
9mm Luger, 1901, 121yrs old
40 S&W, 1990, 32yrs old
45 Auto, 1904, 118yrs old
38spl,1898, 124yrs old
357 magnum, 1935, 87yrs old
380 auto, 1908, 114yrs old

So I cannot believe age alone is a factor.

So by what criteria is a cartridge defined as obsolete? how does one define or quantify "in common use".
Click to expand...
They are obsolete when NO major manufacturer continues to make ammo for them.
 
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