Houston Burglar killer Joe Horn cleared by Grand Jury

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im a big proponent of castle laws/no duty to retreat...and i really hate to agree with Tennessee G...:o

but i think i do,based on my admittedly limited knowledge of the case anyway...it appears he knowingly went too far.

if they were shot in the back while turned and pointing something in his direction,or perhaps turned to go for a weapon(and he had reason to believe that was indeed the case)...

but othewise,im having a hard time seeing the justification here.

am i terribly upset about two criminals getting what they brought on themselves? no.

but i do not like the precedent(as many here seem to) and i do think this could be used against us to great affect.
 
To paraphrase: Evil will always triumph, when good men do nothing.
TennG said:
All he had to do was stay in his house and they would have been in jail and nobody would be dead.
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Jail? How? By that undercover officer?

You've made this statement a couple of times, now. Your opinion is premised upon foreknowledge not available to Horn.

One thing we do know, most often burglars are generally not caught, once they leave the scene.
 
"Don't Mess With Texas". Got that right, and I lived there half my life.

Reminds me of an incident at the Irving Mall a long time ago. All I remember is some dude was murdering his ex-girlfriend/wife and another citizen saw it go down. BG peeled out of the parking lot, but the witness wasn't about to let him get away and shot him with a rather large revolver through his car door. He was indicted, but public opinion was overwhelmingly in support of the fellow and he got his charges dismissed somehow.

If anyone has that link, please post it because I couldn't find it. I think this happened back in the late 80's.

Now one thing that bothers me, if you're running away from someone, it's an act of surrender, right? Pretty much? First thing that comes to mind if a gun is pointed at me is run...just instinct.
 
I would also welcome Mr. Horn as my neighbor. There are all kinds of 'what if`s" we can all sit and make up today. "What if "Horn accidently shot someone else, 'WHAT IF" supposedly unoccupied house was occuppied that day by schoolgirl sick home from school. Think the perps would have left her alone finding her snuggled in her bed asleep:eek: Alot of rape, murders start out as just simple burglary. Facts are facts and the what ifs never happened. Go to some of the big cities today. The criminal wants you at home when he decides to come in your dwelling. That way he can make sure he doesn`t miss that mother-lode you`ve got stashed somewhere cause he`ll beat you and your family to find your hiding spots. To say LEO would have caught these two fine upstanding pieces of garbage(read their rap sheets) before they could get across the border or violate someone else is laughable. Just as I don`t feel its immoral to go to another country and kill someone I`ve never seen or will probably never have the chance to personnaly harm me in my own country, I don`t feel it immoral to protect self and neighbor right here in this country. Shouldn`t protection of each other start here first? As far as the anti-gunners, let them post signs on their doors stating their feelings on guns and assure bad guy there`s no guns in their homes. That way when bad guy is doing his job on anti-gunner and family, anti-gunner can stand proud knowing he didn`t have a gun in the house to protect his family. IMHO, Knowing what I`ve seen and read on Horn case he did our society a good deed and should be applauded.
 
Just a thought to the 'what if' crowd. Mr. Horn has, to my knowledge, lived this long without accidentally shooting someone. My guess is because he is by in large a rational person and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what a burglary looks like.

Therefore it would seem that if he's the type to fly off the handle or that of a vigalante, he would have had several other issues prior to this. Thus it would seem that TX law isn't what caused this shooting, or some mans alleged desire to pop someone. It seems that this shooting was caused by a couple of criminals, who shouldn't have been here in the first place, comitting a felony.
 
fine line between burglar & murder

It is real nice to sit in front of your computer with no blood pumping and think of how you would handle seeing criminals breaking into your neighbor's house.

Are these guys just burglars, or potential burglar/murderers? Do 911 operators receive training in law, and verbal self defense instructions. Will you let a 911 operator tell you to lay down your personal defense and hide like any self respecting victim?

So If I put my mind-reading cap on ( like everyone else) Joe believes these are criminals. He is tired of seeing night after night of news where fellow residences of Houston are the victims of criminal activity. He decides just maybe he avoid being a victim or the neighbor of a victim. He confronts the CRIMINALS thinking they will be reasonable and stop what they are doing. whoops he underestimated their viciousness. They turn on him thinking he is just some dumb old scared man with a shotgun who's moral code and legal restrictions will not allow Joe to ACTUALLY DEFEND himself. At this point, now it is not about the crime of robbery, but the crime of "about to be murder" of Joe because Joe had the nerve to interrupt their CRIME. Joe NOW fears for his life and in the heat of the confrontation takes defensive action.

Did he shoot when he should not have, was their real danger to Joe? Only Joe and the CRIMINALS know for sure. If I have to error, I am going to error on the side of the guy who thought he or his neighbors were about to be " in the Houston nightly news as just another poor dumb victim of a robbery turned into a murder when the neighbor confronted the CRIMINALS. In this news report the CRIMINALS wrestled Joe's shotgun from him, and shot poor dumb non racial Joe in the chest and he is now the one the County Corner is doing a report on.

How many would even read about Joe the victim? Would there be outrageous indignation about Joe being shot by ( non white people)? It ain't about the color of the Criminal.

Just another view point to consider. Did I think Joe did the correct thing? I am not sure. Did the CRIMINALS PROVOKE HIM, of that I am sure. It is about time we stop acting like a society of victims and try to help our neighbors when we see them being the victims of a crime.

I would not have been brave enough to confront two CRIMINALS, so I don't have a clue if Joe was brave or stupid, but I know two Criminals didn't kill Joe, and other Houston CRIMINALS will be more cautious in the future.

I'm sad that two people were killed, but I am glad it was not Joe or the neighbor.
 
No human life is worth a TV set or some other "Stuff" that is probably covered by insurance anyway. People who think and speak the way you are speaking (and you have a right to) make the antigunners job very easy for them. I hope there aren't many around who believe as you do.
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Whenever I hear this.

I think of this:

A Nation of Cowards

Crime is not only a complete disavowal of the social contract, but also a commandeering of the victim's person and liberty. If the individual's dignity lies in the fact that he is a moral agent engaging in actions of his own will, in free exchange with others, then crime always violates the victim's dignity. It is, in fact, an act of enslavement. Your wallet, your purse, or your car may not be worth your life, but your dignity is; and if it is not worth fighting for, it can hardly be said to exist...

...It is impossible to address the problem of rampant crime without talking about the moral responsibility of the intended victim. Crime is rampant because the law-abiding, each of us, condone it, excuse it, permit it, submit to it. We permit and encourage it because we do not fight back, immediately, then and there, where it happens. Crime is not rampant because we do not have enough prisons, because judges and prosecutors are too soft, because the police are hamstrung with absurd technicalities. The defect is there, in our character. We are a nation of cowards and shirkers.
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The sentiment that "No human life is worth a TV set" does miss the point a bit. The question is whether keeping the sort of society we'd like to live in is worth a human life.

I think the answer to that question is obvious.
 
Too bad there's LOTS of gunowners who are just waiting to shoot or kill someone...like that racist, homicidal maniac JOE HORN vigilante. You listen to that tape and you tell me about someone abusing a purported right. I'm certain in that neighborhood, in that part of the country, anyone can get away with murder. And do you honestly think that if the perps were white teenaged boys he would have executed them as he executed those poor thieves? Oh, that JOE HORN is going to live in hell here on earth and I hope that he redeems himself by turning over all worldly possessions to the families of the departed. That would be a starter...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLtKCC7z0yc

For a different take on what background there may be, you might want to look at this thread on the concealed carry forum dealing with this local case here in California. The cousin of the homicide victim has a few things to say, and there's some interesting background info on the shooter.

http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbull...shoots-drunk-man-front-yard-6.html#post771568
 
Tennessee Gentleman I think Mr. Horn was both foolish and lucky to not be indicted. He now sees I think according to some recent news stories that he should have stayed in the house. http://http://www.chron.com/disp/sto...x/5866954.html

The bad guys would have been caught and would now be in jail now where they belong. Mr. Horn will have to live with this until he dies. The shootings while perhaps justified (and according to the grand jury they were) were I think unnecessary and foolish. There was a plainclothes detective right there watching and waiting for backup and he had to duck because he was afraid Mr. Horn would shoot him thinking he was the "wheel man"! Mr. Horn might have shot a policeman or another neighbor.

I would not want somebody like Mr. Horn for a neighbor and would be afraid that he would shoot first and maybe injure or kill a member of my family. I think he gives the rest of us a bad name in the gun world. These are the kinds of incidents the Bradys use to tell the public that we shouldn't have concealed carry.

I know the laws in Texas shielded him but I do not believe that people should be shot and killed just for stealing. In Tennessee he would have gone to jail and I would vote to convict him. Deadly force IMHO is only morally justified by civilians when life is imminently threatened and there is nowhere else to retreat. Mr. Horn in his house was in NO IMMINENT DANGER! He choose to go outside and then shoot the bad guys as they ran away.

Our duty as civilians are to call the cops if we see a crime and let them deal with it as would have happened in this case if Mr. Horn had not let his outrage get the better of him.
Today 05:49 AM
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FINALLY, a voice of reason.

The irony of this whole thing will be that Mr. JOE HORN will have hurt the cause of us gun-toting Americans.

I think of Mr. JOE HORN more as a 'Travis Bickle' than a courageous hero. How many 'Travis Bickle's' are out there?
 
And do you honestly think that if the perps were white teenaged boys he would have executed them as he executed those poor thieves?
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Poor thieves? Lets see. They broke the law by coming here. They broke the law by participating in a burglary ring. One of them broke the law by selling narcotics. He then broke the law by returning afer being deported. On the day in question, they were walking out of the house with 2k and jewelry.

Just so I'm clear, which one of these things makes them "poor thieves"?
 
Big deal. A larceny.

Some may want to join their friend, Mr. Joe Horn aka 'Travis Bickle', and rid the world of such vermin?
 
STAGE 2 Quote:
And do you honestly think that if the perps were white teenaged boys he would have executed them as he executed those poor thieves?

Poor thieves? Lets see. They broke the law by coming here. They broke the law by participating in a burglary ring. One of them broke the law by selling narcotics. He then broke the law by returning afer being deported. On the day in question, they were walking out of the house with 2k and jewelry.

Just so I'm clear, which one of these things makes them "poor thieves"?
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So what? NONE of those crimes are punishable by death, but I guess they are in '[redacted]'. And MR. JOE HORN had no such knowledge when he killed those guys.
 
Antipits wrote,
One thing we do know, most often burglars are generally not caught, once they leave the scene.
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Well then, logically, they should all be shot before they get the chance to leave the scene of a burglary, eh? You're promoting an anarchy state with such reasoning.

Are we allowed to disagree with staff opinions here on the FL?
 
Some here are promoting VIGILANTISM.

"A vigilante is a person who ignores due process of law and enacts his or her own form of justice when they deem the response of the authorities to be insufficient. Several groups and individuals have been labeled as vigilantes by various historians and media. Vigilantes have been central to several creative fictional works and are often depicted as being heroes and retaliatory against wrongdoers.

But VIGILANTISM leads to anarchy. Are some here promoting anarchy? VIGILANTISM leads to the destruction of a country, and total chaos.
 
So what? NONE of those crimes are punishable by death, but I guess they are in '[redacted]'. And MR. JOE HORN had no such knowledge when he killed those guys.
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Umm, yes he did. He knew they were felons as he witnessed them break into his neighbors house and steal their property. Since home invaders frequently carry weapons its very likely that they could have been armed. So what Horn knew is that there were two younger felons, potentially armed, and one had entered his property and was coming towards him and failed to stop when commanded to do so. Thats sounds a bit different than a crazed racist looking to kill people.

Like I said before, this is the first time this has happened with Horn. If he was in fact a racist bent on killing or a vigilante, there probably would be some other incidents to look at.

Some here are promoting VIGILANTISM.

"A vigilante is a person who ignores due process of law and enacts his or her own form of justice when they deem the response of the authorities to be insufficient.
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Read your own definition. Horn acted in accordance with the law. Furthermore, there was no response from the authorities here. Therefore Horn couldn't have been a vigilante because there wan't any government action.
 
brentfoto said:
And do you honestly think that if the perps were white teenaged boys he would have executed them as he executed those poor thieves?
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I honestly think if the two deceased were white teens, we probably would have heard very little about it nationally and it would have been confined to a local story.

If Mr. Horn would have been African-American or Hispanic and shot two white teens in the same situation, I doubt we would have heard much about it either and if we did the same people who are calling Horn racist, would be defending him and calling anyone who questioned his motives racists.
 
To paraphrase: Evil will always triumph, when good men do nothing.
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Nobody said to do nothing. You call the cops. Nobody's life was in danger.

Jail? How? By that undercover officer?
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Yes and the backup that was very close by.

One thing we do know, most often burglars are generally not caught, once they leave the scene.
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So they should be shot in the back as they run away if at all possible? I think some of the posters on this board are sick. This is some of the craziest talk I have ever heard. Listening to that 911 tape makes me ill. Not much else to say except I hope that if any of you ever pull a Joe Horn you go directly to jail for a long long time.
 
I think some of the posters on this board are sick. This is some of the craziest talk I have ever heard.
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So if someone would have been home and shot them as they came through the window you would have been ok with it?

Not much else to say except I hope that if any of you ever pull a Joe Horn you go directly to jail for a long long time.
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I didn't realize how many namby, pamby holier than tho bleeding hearts posted on this site till this thread brought them out.

I hope if some bandits rape you and shoot your sister no one does anything about it not even call 911.
 
kmoffitt said:
Well then, logically, they should all be shot before they get the chance to leave the scene of a burglary, eh? You're promoting an anarchy state with such reasoning.
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You have read way too much into what I wrote.

As I understand what transpired, Horn went outside to confront and hold the criminals until the police arrived. Am I wrong in this understanding?

If not, reread my comments in light of this.
Are we allowed to disagree with staff opinions here on the FL?
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If we are not acting in an official capacity, Yup! If we are acting officially, you'll know it. I guarantee it.

FWIW, I'm as opinionated as anyone else here (ask some of the other regulars here! :D). Feel free to disagree anytime.
 
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