LanceOregon
Moderator
Actually, if you check the news reports, one of them already had been deported once before for criminal activity.
Somehow, though, he managed to get back into the USA.
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Houston Burglar killer Joe Horn cleared by Grand Jury
- Thread starter LanceOregon
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Actually, if you check the news reports, one of them already had been deported once before for criminal activity.
Somehow, though, he managed to get back into the USA.
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LanceOregon
Moderator
You know, you are absolutely right about that. Many people feel that the Grand Jury system is such that if a DA wants an indictment, that he can get one. Whenever one is not issued, it is often thus a surprise.
However, Horn did have an attorney, and he did choose to testify, which many people do not choose to do. I think that jurors may have identified and sympathized with him during his testimony.
Plus there was so much media attention about the case for so many months, that any jurors would have been aware of it.
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LanceOregon
Moderator
Well, the County Coroner has now released the autopsy reports on the two dead men. The summary reads like a testimonial for illustrating the destructive force of a load of Buckshot on the human body. These two criminals were both literally shredded by the Buckshot. Joe Horn hit both of them solidly in their upper torso.
On the criminal Ortiz, the 00 Buckshot penetrated his left lung, his heart, his spleen, destroyed his aortic root, and burst his left jugular vein in his neck. The damage to the criminal Torres was likewise massive in nature. The Buckshot even exited out the criminals, leaving large exit wounds too. I guess Buckshot does have decent penetration abilities after all.
If you want to read the full news account, click on this link before. It also has links to download the complete official coroner documents:
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/chronicle/5866090.html
These reports certainly make a strong case for using a shotgun for self-defense.
The above web page also has a fascinating video of the media interviewing citizens regarding their reaction to the Grand Jury's decision. Most of the people applauded the decision. And there are even Latinos and Blacks on the video saying that they supported Horn's actions, and believed in a person's right to defend their property, and the second amendment.
So much for the notion that the Latino and Black community all considered him to be a racist.
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On the criminal Ortiz, the 00 Buckshot penetrated his left lung, his heart, his spleen, destroyed his aortic root, and burst his left jugular vein in his neck. The damage to the criminal Torres was likewise massive in nature. The Buckshot even exited out the criminals, leaving large exit wounds too. I guess Buckshot does have decent penetration abilities after all.
If you want to read the full news account, click on this link before. It also has links to download the complete official coroner documents:
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/chronicle/5866090.html
These reports certainly make a strong case for using a shotgun for self-defense.
The above web page also has a fascinating video of the media interviewing citizens regarding their reaction to the Grand Jury's decision. Most of the people applauded the decision. And there are even Latinos and Blacks on the video saying that they supported Horn's actions, and believed in a person's right to defend their property, and the second amendment.
So much for the notion that the Latino and Black community all considered him to be a racist.
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LanceOregon
Moderator
Well, the picketing and protests were organized and lead by a local black man who lives in Houston and goes by the name of "Quanell X".
His family converted to Islam, and joined Louis Farrakhan's "Nation of Islam". He became a local activist for them in the Houston area in the early '90's. However, he was eventually excommunicated by the Nation of Islam, after going on local TV so many times and trying to incite violence, and making hateful speeches that brought a lot of negative publicity. Here is an example of one of his statements he made back then in 1995:
"I say to Jewish America: Get ready … knuckle up, put your boots on, because we're ready and the war is going down. … The real deal is this: Black youth do not want a relationship with the Jewish community or the mainstream white community or the foot shuffling, head-bowing, knee bobbing black community. … All you Jews can go straight to hell."
After the Nation of Islam threw him out, he organized a Black paramilitary group that he called : Mental Freedom Obtains Independence. The group's purpose was to prepare for the coming war against whites and Jews. However, the organization became a complete failure.
He then joined the New Black Panther Party, and is now their local leader in Houston.
Here is a photo of him taken at the Joe Horn protest, with his New Black Panther Party bodyguards protecting him from the crowd:
It is ironic that the man who accused Joe Horn of being a racist, is probably really a racist himself.
Of course, there are some folks who claim that only white people can truly be racists.
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Heres the bottom line on all of this whining from LULAC and quanell Xcrement and his posse of idiots.
If Mr Horn was anything but a white man, we wouldnt be hearing a peep from these blowhards. What if the two thieving scumbags had been white and the shooter a black or hispanic man, would they be protesting then?
Of course not.
I am sure that Mr. Horn has been a tortured soul the last 9 months, hopefully the grand jurys decision will bring him some peace.
As far as i am concerned, they got what they had coming to them, 2 less criminals to worry about, it was THIER decision that led to thier deaths, its all on them.
If Mr Horn was anything but a white man, we wouldnt be hearing a peep from these blowhards. What if the two thieving scumbags had been white and the shooter a black or hispanic man, would they be protesting then?
Of course not.
I am sure that Mr. Horn has been a tortured soul the last 9 months, hopefully the grand jurys decision will bring him some peace.
As far as i am concerned, they got what they had coming to them, 2 less criminals to worry about, it was THIER decision that led to thier deaths, its all on them.
hihosilver
New member
If they would have kept this up, they woulve have eventually got it (and not in the back) by another homeowner. If the bad guys werent the way they were, the laws would not be the way they are. I would welcome this guy as my neighbor anyday. Same thing goes if 2 white guys are robbing a law abiding black guy. There really is a difference beteen good and evil. both are colorblind.
"quanell Xcrement"
I try to be objective and not denigrate anyone, but this time I'm COMPELLED to laugh and enjoy this one. Quite appropriate, I'd say!
Such "Xcrement" try to grab some kind of popularity by appearing to be a "champion" of someone/something/some place - in this case, trying to "uphold the dignity" of two dead equal "quanell Xcrements". And this particular specimen is a huge NEGATIVE to his race and misson.
Here are some relevant questions - I think:
(i) Would YOU like to have Joe as your neighbor or "quanell Xcrement"?
(ii) Does that community now have to deal with TWO LESS known criminals?
(iii) Is there a probabiltiy - however small - that the likes of the two dead scumbags might get the message that DEATH IS A DEFINITE POSSIBILITY they MUST consider whenever they venture out on their chosen "career"?
(iv) Much is being made of the "shot-in-back" scenario. Who is so certain that those two now-dead criminals were not lunging for what Joe might have thought were lethal weapons?
I try to be objective and not denigrate anyone, but this time I'm COMPELLED to laugh and enjoy this one. Quite appropriate, I'd say!
Such "Xcrement" try to grab some kind of popularity by appearing to be a "champion" of someone/something/some place - in this case, trying to "uphold the dignity" of two dead equal "quanell Xcrements". And this particular specimen is a huge NEGATIVE to his race and misson.
Here are some relevant questions - I think:
(i) Would YOU like to have Joe as your neighbor or "quanell Xcrement"?
(ii) Does that community now have to deal with TWO LESS known criminals?
(iii) Is there a probabiltiy - however small - that the likes of the two dead scumbags might get the message that DEATH IS A DEFINITE POSSIBILITY they MUST consider whenever they venture out on their chosen "career"?
(iv) Much is being made of the "shot-in-back" scenario. Who is so certain that those two now-dead criminals were not lunging for what Joe might have thought were lethal weapons?
Tennessee Gentleman
New member
I think Mr. Horn was both foolish and lucky to not be indicted. He now sees I think according to some recent news stories that he should have stayed in the house. http://http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/tx/5866954.html
The bad guys would have been caught and would now be in jail now where they belong. Mr. Horn will have to live with this until he dies. The shootings while perhaps justified (and according to the grand jury they were) were I think unnecessary and foolish. There was a plainclothes detective right there watching and waiting for backup and he had to duck because he was afraid Mr. Horn would shoot him thinking he was the "wheel man"! Mr. Horn might have shot a policeman or another neighbor.
I would not want somebody like Mr. Horn for a neighbor and would be afraid that he would shoot first and maybe injure or kill a member of my family. I think he gives the rest of us a bad name in the gun world. These are the kinds of incidents the Bradys use to tell the public that we shouldn't have concealed carry.
I know the laws in Texas shielded him but I do not believe that people should be shot and killed just for stealing. In Tennessee he would have gone to jail and I would vote to convict him. Deadly force IMHO is only morally justified by civilians when life is imminently threatened and there is nowhere else to retreat. Mr. Horn in his house was in NO IMMINENT DANGER! He choose to go outside and then shoot the bad guys as they ran away.
Our duty as civilians are to call the cops if we see a crime and let them deal with it as would have happened in this case if Mr. Horn had not let his outrage get the better of him.
The bad guys would have been caught and would now be in jail now where they belong. Mr. Horn will have to live with this until he dies. The shootings while perhaps justified (and according to the grand jury they were) were I think unnecessary and foolish. There was a plainclothes detective right there watching and waiting for backup and he had to duck because he was afraid Mr. Horn would shoot him thinking he was the "wheel man"! Mr. Horn might have shot a policeman or another neighbor.
I would not want somebody like Mr. Horn for a neighbor and would be afraid that he would shoot first and maybe injure or kill a member of my family. I think he gives the rest of us a bad name in the gun world. These are the kinds of incidents the Bradys use to tell the public that we shouldn't have concealed carry.
I know the laws in Texas shielded him but I do not believe that people should be shot and killed just for stealing. In Tennessee he would have gone to jail and I would vote to convict him. Deadly force IMHO is only morally justified by civilians when life is imminently threatened and there is nowhere else to retreat. Mr. Horn in his house was in NO IMMINENT DANGER! He choose to go outside and then shoot the bad guys as they ran away.
Our duty as civilians are to call the cops if we see a crime and let them deal with it as would have happened in this case if Mr. Horn had not let his outrage get the better of him.
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In this state (South By God Carolina) he probably would have been charged, and most likely would have gotten off at the grand jury. The Grand Jury in Tx is sending a message about frustration with crime and illegal migration. I don't know which our government has ignored/screwed up more our borders or our energy supplies. They have known both were large problems for years and years and done effectively, nothing.
Tennessee Gentleman wrote,
Finally some sanity in this thread. This is the sort of incident that causes leftists to trumpet the "all guns are evil" mantra. The fact that so many here on the FL don't see that is troubling. And, we don't need to "imagine" that there are certain facts unknown to us about this case. The dialogue between the dispatcher and Mr. Horn is complete enough to make a sound determination. Clearly, Mr. Horn was caught up in his pre-determined intent to shoot these two burglars. Scumbags or not, the crime they were committing did not call for this level of response. Mr. Horn has done damage to the causes of responsible gun owners everywhere. Horn was clearly over-motivated to shoot someone.
Finally some sanity in this thread. This is the sort of incident that causes leftists to trumpet the "all guns are evil" mantra. The fact that so many here on the FL don't see that is troubling. And, we don't need to "imagine" that there are certain facts unknown to us about this case. The dialogue between the dispatcher and Mr. Horn is complete enough to make a sound determination. Clearly, Mr. Horn was caught up in his pre-determined intent to shoot these two burglars. Scumbags or not, the crime they were committing did not call for this level of response. Mr. Horn has done damage to the causes of responsible gun owners everywhere. Horn was clearly over-motivated to shoot someone.
I've seen a lot of posters say how 'lucky' Horn was not to get indicted, lucky how that the grand jury followed the law? It should not have even have gone before the grand jury.
All they had to do was stop when he told them to and they would still be alive.
Well, I do so that nullifies your vote.
It wasn't in TN it was in the Great State of Texas where the law clearly states:
§ 9.43. PROTECTION OF THIRD PERSON'S PROPERTY.
A person is justified in using force or deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property of a third person if, under the circumstances as he reasonably believes them to be, the actor would be justified under Section 9.41 or 9.42 in using force or deadly force to protect his own land or property and:
(1) the actor reasonably believes the unlawful interference constitutes attempted or consummated theft of or criminal mischief to the tangible, movable property;
If your in Texas and don't want to get shot one way to avoid it is, don't steal.
All they had to do was stop when he told them to and they would still be alive.
Well, I do so that nullifies your vote.
It wasn't in TN it was in the Great State of Texas where the law clearly states:
§ 9.43. PROTECTION OF THIRD PERSON'S PROPERTY.
A person is justified in using force or deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property of a third person if, under the circumstances as he reasonably believes them to be, the actor would be justified under Section 9.41 or 9.42 in using force or deadly force to protect his own land or property and:
(1) the actor reasonably believes the unlawful interference constitutes attempted or consummated theft of or criminal mischief to the tangible, movable property;
If your in Texas and don't want to get shot one way to avoid it is, don't steal.
Tennessee Gentleman
New member
I'm not voting but I think your position is immoral. No human life is worth a TV set or some other "Stuff" that is probably covered by insurance anyway. People who think and speak the way you are speaking (and you have a right to) make the antigunners job very easy for them. I hope there aren't many around who believe as you do.
All he had to do was stay in his house and they would have been in jail and nobody would be dead. What if a neighbor had happened to come out and was hit by the fire of the shotgun? Your thinking here is unreal to me.
Legal? Unfortunately yes. Moral or right? No. Joe Horn was in no imminent danger and killed two people he didn't have to. That is wrong, legal or not. By the way, your Texas law is bad.
Dust Monkey
New member
I do. You break into my house, steal my stuff that I worked hard to purchase for me and my family. You deserve what you get. If more people got shot, less people would break into houses and try to steal.
And yes, before some of you flame me, my DVD player, or DVDs or any property that I bought and paid for is more important to me that a thugs life.
Really? A 60+ year old man dealing with 2 potentially armed felons, one of which has entered his property isn't in danger? It would sure be nice to be as clairvoyant as you are regarding the actions of criminals.
As far as moral, I suppose it depends on where your compass is. People used to be executed for stealing horses or rustling cattle. Way way back in the day, adultery was punishable by death.
I think its really presumptious for you to sit there and say that this action was patently immoral. You have no idea what the intentions of these guys were. Maybe they were planning to rape or kill anyone that was in the home. Either way, they were two dirtbags who were killed because of their own stupidity, and its not the job of Horn to place his life in further danger to ensure they live to see a trial.
Whether you agree with Horn's decision or not, he acted within Texas law and a Grand Jury couldn't indict him. He is definitely not the first guy in Texas to shoot a couple of burglars. I doubt he'll be the last. Heck, a few years back, a guy shot a wrecker driver trying to repossess the guy's truck and a grand jury didn't indict him (the shooter ended up committing suicide because he was racked with guilt over the slaying.)
I think most of us would have done something different in this case. A lot of folks would have just stayed in the house. Horn chose to go outside and confront the burglars. That decision was not "immoral". As far as the decision to shoot being immoral, I don't know, I wasn't in Horn's shoes at the time and I don't have all of the facts.
I think most of us would have done something different in this case. A lot of folks would have just stayed in the house. Horn chose to go outside and confront the burglars. That decision was not "immoral". As far as the decision to shoot being immoral, I don't know, I wasn't in Horn's shoes at the time and I don't have all of the facts.
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