Homeschooling
- Thread starter Redworm
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No, I don't think that homeschooling should be illegal; yes, I still think homeschooling is idiotic, in most cases. I believe a survey of homeschooling parents will reveal most to be fundamentalist religious zealots. The quoted homeschooling test results are largely irrelevant to this discussion.
I would like to see a few specifics on the numbers presented for standardised test of
Here ya' go. All statictics with footnotes. And, don't forget about homeschoolers winning national spelling bees and geography bees.
http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000010/200410250.asp
Here ya' go. All statictics with footnotes. And, don't forget about homeschoolers winning national spelling bees and geography bees.
http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000010/200410250.asp
Well I have seen many examples of education material put together for homeschooling parents by religious organizations. One of the best examples was one that taught students that the dinosaurs were evil and thus god killed them in the flood. lol 
With any luck social darwinism will take care of that.
But religious zealots or not I don't think it's right to keep parents from homeschooling their children. My friend has been in touch with an attorney and at the very least the superintendant is going to back down on the truancy charges because she can "pull the jew card" (her words
) on them for discplining the girl for taking days off for a jewish holiday.
There does seem to be some legal pressure in that state to keep parents from homeschooling and I've learned that part of it comes from parents who use it as an excuse to stay out of legal trouble. That's what bothers me the most, that parents are using their children to get out of trouble as opposed to putting them ahead of all other priorities.
With any luck social darwinism will take care of that.But religious zealots or not I don't think it's right to keep parents from homeschooling their children. My friend has been in touch with an attorney and at the very least the superintendant is going to back down on the truancy charges because she can "pull the jew card" (her words
) on them for discplining the girl for taking days off for a jewish holiday. There does seem to be some legal pressure in that state to keep parents from homeschooling and I've learned that part of it comes from parents who use it as an excuse to stay out of legal trouble. That's what bothers me the most, that parents are using their children to get out of trouble as opposed to putting them ahead of all other priorities.
yes, I still think homeschooling is idiotic, in most cases. I believe a survey of hom
The statistics show the academic success of home schooling. I believe that is what education is all about.
It is relevant because, the characterization of most home schoolers as religious zealots that are not really interested in educating their children, is the main theme of the campaign against home schooling by the teachers' unions and the state. If you can convince people that home schoolers are religious wackos, it much easier to get away with the activities that were discussed to begin this thread.
The statistics show a whole lot of educatin' going on!
The statistics show the academic success of home schooling. I believe that is what education is all about.
It is relevant because, the characterization of most home schoolers as religious zealots that are not really interested in educating their children, is the main theme of the campaign against home schooling by the teachers' unions and the state. If you can convince people that home schoolers are religious wackos, it much easier to get away with the activities that were discussed to begin this thread.
The statistics show a whole lot of educatin' going on!
One of the best examples was one that taught students that the dinosaurs were evil an
Last post on this from me!
I don't know how or why the dinosaurs died, and I don't believe anyone else does. Lot's of theories around, though. I guess "God killed them" is as good a guess as any. Not any worse than some of the outrageous things that my kids were "taught" in the public schools!
Last post on this from me!
I don't know how or why the dinosaurs died, and I don't believe anyone else does. Lot's of theories around, though. I guess "God killed them" is as good a guess as any. Not any worse than some of the outrageous things that my kids were "taught" in the public schools!
MeekAndMild
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Do you have any real information about that or are you just pulling the idea out of the nether regions? It is sort of like saying you believe a survey of gun owners will reveal most to be fill in the blank. The point becomes a little bit funny when one considers the words "I believe a survey". Could not your own beliefs constitute a form of zealotry? At the very least it sounds fishy to me.
Even if you're right, who is to say that religious zealototry is a bad thing? I might point out that the Quakers, Amish and Mennonites were once looked upon as religious zealots, but they are probably the most peaceful people in the Western hemisphere. Martin Luther King was once viewed as a religious zealot, as was his namesake.
Having worked in the behavioral sciences field for a number of years and having met literally thousands of criminals I'd give a conservative estimate that 99.96% of the criminals I have personally met were failures of the public school educational system. I can't name one single home schooled violent felon although I do recall a couple of home schooled people who got into trouble with drugs. I suppose if you could produce some grant money I could even publish a reasonably referenced scientific article to that effect, though at this age I've got better things to do with my time.
jrklaus, I don't see much hope either. My father was a teacher before he quit to get a better job at the mill and my mother in law was a teacher. Both predicted ultimate failure as far back as 50 years ago, based on multiple failures to address actual (as opposed to theoretical) needs of the community. For a long time I listed the link to Booker T. Washington's book, "Up from Slavery" in my sig line. I'll reproduce the link here in case you missed it. http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/2376
It's been my experience that those that describe innovative ideas and new practices, with proven track records, as "idiotic" are not only closed minded, but missed more than their share of classroom time themselves!!
I'd like to hear PRECISELY why anyone would find fault with homeschooling when it is done PROPERLY.
My son just turned 1 yr old in Nov. and homeshooling is something we are very interested in.
I've seen the product of NY public schools having worked with Special Ed seniors & juniors for several yrs.
I would prefer that MY child be able to right a sentence with correct spelling AND grammar by the time he is 18 and ready for college.
The garbage that is allowed to go on in the PS system is outrageous.
The lack of respect and discipline in these schools does not prepare these kids for what awaits them in the "real world", ie: showing up ON TIME; meeting deadlines; dressing appropriately; speaking with respect to those in authority;experiencing CONSEQUENCES to bad behaviour, etc, etc, etc.
I believe one of the best things that could be done to at least change the atmosphere and instill some discipline in the public schools would be to have them all adopt uniforms so no one looks better or worse than anyone else.
No "bling bling", no gang colors, etc.
But I'm sure the ACLU/liberals would be right there protecting the "rights" of the students to look like hookers and thugs.
And don't get me started on the PARENTS!!!!
It's no wonder some of these kids are such a mess!!
I'd like to hear PRECISELY why anyone would find fault with homeschooling when it is done PROPERLY.
My son just turned 1 yr old in Nov. and homeshooling is something we are very interested in.
I've seen the product of NY public schools having worked with Special Ed seniors & juniors for several yrs.
I would prefer that MY child be able to right a sentence with correct spelling AND grammar by the time he is 18 and ready for college.
The garbage that is allowed to go on in the PS system is outrageous.
The lack of respect and discipline in these schools does not prepare these kids for what awaits them in the "real world", ie: showing up ON TIME; meeting deadlines; dressing appropriately; speaking with respect to those in authority;experiencing CONSEQUENCES to bad behaviour, etc, etc, etc.
I believe one of the best things that could be done to at least change the atmosphere and instill some discipline in the public schools would be to have them all adopt uniforms so no one looks better or worse than anyone else.
No "bling bling", no gang colors, etc.
But I'm sure the ACLU/liberals would be right there protecting the "rights" of the students to look like hookers and thugs.
And don't get me started on the PARENTS!!!!
It's no wonder some of these kids are such a mess!!
I can remember a few well placed ruler smacks across my knuckles as a youngster that had a VERY positive effect on my unrulely behaviour.
Redworm,
We haven't heard much in the way of CONSTRUCTIVE criticism from you.
What EXACTLY is your opinion of the present day PS system?
Seeing as how you view as "idiotic" some parents attempts to properly educate their children in a controlled and safe environment conducive to learning, what do you suggest?
Do you see any problems in the PS system?
Do you feel there is proper discipline in the PS system in general?
Do you think the liberal policies of the last 25/30yrs regarding what goes on in the PS ie:graduating to next class even though they've failed the previous one, have been a good thing?
Please give us some of your thoughts.
Redworm,
We haven't heard much in the way of CONSTRUCTIVE criticism from you.
What EXACTLY is your opinion of the present day PS system?
Seeing as how you view as "idiotic" some parents attempts to properly educate their children in a controlled and safe environment conducive to learning, what do you suggest?
Do you see any problems in the PS system?
Do you feel there is proper discipline in the PS system in general?
Do you think the liberal policies of the last 25/30yrs regarding what goes on in the PS ie:graduating to next class even though they've failed the previous one, have been a good thing?
Please give us some of your thoughts.
Redworm,
among others, yes.
Interesting to me that corporal punishment (properly administered, of course) is all of the things that a "negative consequence" is supposed to be: immediate, does not remove the student from the instructional environment long, has no long lasting consequences, refocuses everyone on the task at hand. So, of course, it isn't used anymore.
My first year of teaching, Virginia had just outlawed corporal punishment state-wide. I had a student who was a good kid, but the of the type who would be talking and when you would ask him to stop would say, "I wasn't talking." Then he would keep talking, eyeing me the whole time waiting for me to ask him to stop talking again, when he would again deny it.
One day he asked me, "Why do students here act the way they do?" I asked, "What do you mean, Tommy (not his real name, of course), act the way they do?" He replied, "You know, not pay attention, disrespect teachers, not do their work, that sort of stuff." "Do you want my honest opinion?" "Yes." "I think it's because we cannot paddle students anymore." "Well," he replied, "I think you may be right about that."
After I picked my jaw up off the floor I said, "Tell me why you think that." Now Tommy's father was a process engineer at one of the local manufaturing plants whose father had been transferred to North Carolina for a year to help set up a new line at a company facility there. Tommy said, "When I got to North Carolina, they paddled students who misbehaved. Students did their work, paid attention in class, and listened to the teachers and behaved. Then a teacher paddled a student and went too far, and the parents threatened to sue the school system. The school board met and said students couldn't be paddled anymore. Within two weeks, students were acting just like they act here: not listening, not doing work, not behaving. The school board met again and said, 'To heck with this;we'll take the lawsuit if it comes, we're back to paddling.' Within one week, students were back to behaving. So I think paddling does work."
This eighth-grade boy had figured it out! Evidently, we can't.
By the way, later in the year, the mother came in for one of her parent-teacher conferences with another teacher and me (we held joint conferences). At this conference, his mother accused the other teacher and me of calling his teachers in North Carolina at the beginning of the year and "conspiring" (her word) with them about his talking in class and other misbehaviors because "we told the same lies about her son that they did" [verbatim].
I'll never forget her son's words, or hers.
among others, yes.
Interesting to me that corporal punishment (properly administered, of course) is all of the things that a "negative consequence" is supposed to be: immediate, does not remove the student from the instructional environment long, has no long lasting consequences, refocuses everyone on the task at hand. So, of course, it isn't used anymore.
My first year of teaching, Virginia had just outlawed corporal punishment state-wide. I had a student who was a good kid, but the of the type who would be talking and when you would ask him to stop would say, "I wasn't talking." Then he would keep talking, eyeing me the whole time waiting for me to ask him to stop talking again, when he would again deny it.
One day he asked me, "Why do students here act the way they do?" I asked, "What do you mean, Tommy (not his real name, of course), act the way they do?" He replied, "You know, not pay attention, disrespect teachers, not do their work, that sort of stuff." "Do you want my honest opinion?" "Yes." "I think it's because we cannot paddle students anymore." "Well," he replied, "I think you may be right about that."
After I picked my jaw up off the floor I said, "Tell me why you think that." Now Tommy's father was a process engineer at one of the local manufaturing plants whose father had been transferred to North Carolina for a year to help set up a new line at a company facility there. Tommy said, "When I got to North Carolina, they paddled students who misbehaved. Students did their work, paid attention in class, and listened to the teachers and behaved. Then a teacher paddled a student and went too far, and the parents threatened to sue the school system. The school board met and said students couldn't be paddled anymore. Within two weeks, students were acting just like they act here: not listening, not doing work, not behaving. The school board met again and said, 'To heck with this;we'll take the lawsuit if it comes, we're back to paddling.' Within one week, students were back to behaving. So I think paddling does work."
This eighth-grade boy had figured it out! Evidently, we can't.
By the way, later in the year, the mother came in for one of her parent-teacher conferences with another teacher and me (we held joint conferences). At this conference, his mother accused the other teacher and me of calling his teachers in North Carolina at the beginning of the year and "conspiring" (her word) with them about his talking in class and other misbehaviors because "we told the same lies about her son that they did" [verbatim].
I'll never forget her son's words, or hers.
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It'd be interesting to see some data on how effective paddling is. Either way, I would never accept it. There is not another person in this world that has the right to strike my child in any fashion besides myself.
Would I have behaved better in school if the teacher was allowed to paddle me? By eighth grade I was adept enough to fight back. Granted I couldn't have possibly won a fight with the average adult but damned if I was going to let anyone lay a hand on me for talking in class.
I just see spanking as barbaric and a punishment only a parent should be allowed to administer. I understand others feel differently but I would never send a child to a school where the teachers are allowed to physically harm her (unless she's somehow a threat to the other kids, of course).
There is certainly a lack of discipline in schools these days but in my opinion it's the parents that should be held responsible, not the schools. That student you mentioned is a good example. By then he should've understood right from wrong and it seems that his mother was lacking in the way she raised him. Tommy knew well enough to ask why students were disrespectful yet he continued to disrespect you himself. That's something that should've been taught in the home, not in elementary school by way of a paddle.
Just my two cents, though.
Would I have behaved better in school if the teacher was allowed to paddle me? By eighth grade I was adept enough to fight back. Granted I couldn't have possibly won a fight with the average adult but damned if I was going to let anyone lay a hand on me for talking in class.
I just see spanking as barbaric and a punishment only a parent should be allowed to administer. I understand others feel differently but I would never send a child to a school where the teachers are allowed to physically harm her (unless she's somehow a threat to the other kids, of course).
There is certainly a lack of discipline in schools these days but in my opinion it's the parents that should be held responsible, not the schools. That student you mentioned is a good example. By then he should've understood right from wrong and it seems that his mother was lacking in the way she raised him. Tommy knew well enough to ask why students were disrespectful yet he continued to disrespect you himself. That's something that should've been taught in the home, not in elementary school by way of a paddle.
Just my two cents, though.
Teaching is, to my knowledge, the only industry that can get more money and benefits for doing a worse and worse job. If you reward failure and punish success, what are you going to get more of? Failure of course.
"Pubic" education is a fine example of what happens when the liberal/left gets carte blanche to do what they want. More and more resources are poured in, less and less results come out the other side. Before they got their dirty hippy hands on it, our schools were #1 in the world, now we "graduate" kids that can't put together proper sentences, do simple math, or fill out an employment application. And we're paying many times more now then before.
The entire rotten structure needs to be torn down, and all education privatized. Then homeschooling wouldbecome a thing of the past, since parents could then choose the best school for their kids.
"Pubic" education is a fine example of what happens when the liberal/left gets carte blanche to do what they want. More and more resources are poured in, less and less results come out the other side. Before they got their dirty hippy hands on it, our schools were #1 in the world, now we "graduate" kids that can't put together proper sentences, do simple math, or fill out an employment application. And we're paying many times more now then before.
The entire rotten structure needs to be torn down, and all education privatized. Then homeschooling wouldbecome a thing of the past, since parents could then choose the best school for their kids.
Redworm,
I understand your feelings about your child. I wasn't advocating that students be paddled for talking in class, of course. I think paddling should be one of the last options on a continuum of options, just like CCW/use of deadly force is only one part (and one of the last) of a continuum of responses to threats of violence.
"The devil is in the details," and coming up with workable solutions to this situation is something I certainly haven't invented thus far. That's why I support the various avenues of schooling mentioned in this thread. One must determine what is right for their child.
I hope all goes well for your friend in Sioux Falls.
I understand your feelings about your child. I wasn't advocating that students be paddled for talking in class, of course. I think paddling should be one of the last options on a continuum of options, just like CCW/use of deadly force is only one part (and one of the last) of a continuum of responses to threats of violence.
"The devil is in the details," and coming up with workable solutions to this situation is something I certainly haven't invented thus far. That's why I support the various avenues of schooling mentioned in this thread. One must determine what is right for their child.
I hope all goes well for your friend in Sioux Falls.
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