rude robert
New member
second on the #4
Home defense rounds
- Thread starter xMINORxTHREATx
- Start date
pabuckslayer08
New member
You guys are most definently correct about the heavier load. Just to clarify I shoot high brass bird shot and not low brass. 2 3/4 high brass bird shot from a 16 gauge. The idea of birdshot mixed with a few roundballs is a very lethal load
I keep slugs in mine, at 10 feet the load will not open up so I just keep them slugs in there. I do have some 00 buck in 3in mag works on yotes just fine. I also keep a box of no. 2 copper plated goose loads, seen a deer get hit with one and it went right down, dont understand why he had those.......
xMINORxTHREATx
New member
I'm not concerned with damage to the house, as I am pellets passing through a wall and hitting another member of my family. It's not just her in the house most of the time.
4runnerman
New member
I'm not concerned with damage to the house, as I am pellets passing through a wall and hitting another member of my family. It's not just her in the house most of the time
How true,The house is just sheetrock,tv's,ect. The other senerio i could not live with..
How true,The house is just sheetrock,tv's,ect. The other senerio i could not live with..
xMINORxTHREATx
New member
Dropping the BG, cool.
Dropping the BG, and my TV. DANG it but cool. Least he didn't steal it.
Dropping the BG, tv, and my 8 year old niece? I wouldn't be able to live with myself after that.
Dropping the BG, and my TV. DANG it but cool. Least he didn't steal it.
Dropping the BG, tv, and my 8 year old niece? I wouldn't be able to live with myself after that.
#4 buckshot is .24 caliber in diameter, 20 grains in weight, and there are usually just shy of 50 pellets in a 12 gauge shell.
At 10 yards there's not much that wont stop, but at longer ranges it's much less lethal and less liable to penetrate through walls. Not saying it won't penetrate, it will, but just with less energy due to having much less mass than 00 buck.
At 10 yards there's not much that wont stop, but at longer ranges it's much less lethal and less liable to penetrate through walls. Not saying it won't penetrate, it will, but just with less energy due to having much less mass than 00 buck.
I've heard this tune before. It seems that every so often someone decides to elevate birdshot to an effective SD/HD round. There are way too many reports & studies about birdshot being ineffective in self defense situations for me to even consider loading my 12 gauge with it. I occasionly use my Judge for SD also. Some people even think that bird shot is effecive from that gun also. There is no way that I would trust my life to 12 gauge birdshot must less from a 410 handgun. The only situation I could think of using birdshot from a pistol would be a carjacking where the perp is shot in the face at point blank range. Just saying...
xMINORxTHREATx
New member
I don't want to use birdshot either, like I said, I put a leather jacket over a block of ballistic gel and only like 5 pellets made it through, and even then it was subcutaneous.
Do they make a low brass buck shot?
Do they make a low brass buck shot?
rantingredneck
New member
Two things and I'll shut up:
1) If a round is an effective stopper of hostilities it will absolutely penetrate walls and kill innocents if fired toward walls with innocents behind them. Know your field of fire. For apartment dwellers and homeowners with split floor plans this is a particular concern.
2) Low velocity slugs can actually penetrate farther than higher velocity slugs. Less deformation of the slug due to reduced velocity allows it to penetrate more, not less. The low velocity slugs are designed with reduced recoil in mind, not reduced penetration.
Personally I use Federal LE12700 (see typical pattern in pic below), but my circumstances are not yours. I live in a home where all bedrooms are on one side of the house and all likely points of entry are on the other.
12 yard pattern from 20" IC choked 870. 12 yards is the longest shot I could concievably take inside my home.
I suppose that was more like 3 or 4 things.....
1) If a round is an effective stopper of hostilities it will absolutely penetrate walls and kill innocents if fired toward walls with innocents behind them. Know your field of fire. For apartment dwellers and homeowners with split floor plans this is a particular concern.
2) Low velocity slugs can actually penetrate farther than higher velocity slugs. Less deformation of the slug due to reduced velocity allows it to penetrate more, not less. The low velocity slugs are designed with reduced recoil in mind, not reduced penetration.
Personally I use Federal LE12700 (see typical pattern in pic below), but my circumstances are not yours. I live in a home where all bedrooms are on one side of the house and all likely points of entry are on the other.
12 yard pattern from 20" IC choked 870. 12 yards is the longest shot I could concievably take inside my home.
I suppose that was more like 3 or 4 things.....
xMINORxTHREATx
New member
My shotgun isn't choked, and that sounds like a viable point there RantingRedneck (about the low velocity slugs)
What about the disc rounds? I've seen a few of them with disc shaped lead. How well do they penetrate. Seems to me they wouldn't penetrate well through walls because of their shape. But what about a soft target? Any one know?
What about the disc rounds? I've seen a few of them with disc shaped lead. How well do they penetrate. Seems to me they wouldn't penetrate well through walls because of their shape. But what about a soft target? Any one know?
rantingredneck
New member
No idea on the disc rounds, but with Federal LE12700 the choke is fairly irrelevant. The flite control wad does most of the patterning for you. Tight patterns even with a cyl bore barrel.
EDIT: This is a somewhat crappy cell phone pic, but the best I could come up with from a cyl bore 18" 870.
The pattern from LE12700 is circled in red COM. Shot at 25 yds.
The holes in the head area of the target are from 3 Federal Tru-Ball standard velocity slugs fired at the same distance. Shot as fast as I could cycle the pump and resettle on target. Probably 1-1.5 seconds between shots max.
2nd EDIT: Don't laugh at my multicolored 870........
It was an Asheville PD trade in that I replaced stocks and added a green extension I had laying in the parts bin. Also added a Marbles tritium bead (really liking that so far).
EDIT: This is a somewhat crappy cell phone pic, but the best I could come up with from a cyl bore 18" 870.
The pattern from LE12700 is circled in red COM. Shot at 25 yds.
The holes in the head area of the target are from 3 Federal Tru-Ball standard velocity slugs fired at the same distance. Shot as fast as I could cycle the pump and resettle on target. Probably 1-1.5 seconds between shots max.
2nd EDIT: Don't laugh at my multicolored 870........
It was an Asheville PD trade in that I replaced stocks and added a green extension I had laying in the parts bin. Also added a Marbles tritium bead (really liking that so far).
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Here is a link from Shotgunworld.com, which may make some reconsider small shot for defense, especially if your assailant is wearing a heavy leather jacker or a thick wool coat.
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=109958
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=109958
xMINORxTHREATx
New member
Dobe, are you suggesting birdshot is still a viable option?
xMINORxTHREATx
New member
Ok, just checking. lol
I wish I would have taken pictures when I did my leather jacket test.
Maybe I will do it again this spring and post some pics of it.
I wish I would have taken pictures when I did my leather jacket test.
Maybe I will do it again this spring and post some pics of it.
4runnerman
New member
I agree with minor to a point... Birdshot to a person 6 feet away with just a t shirt on will be very deadly,put him further away with a jacket on and story is different.
bridshot at close range to raw flesh would be very,very deadly. I have shot birdshot at say 6 feet into a 2 x 4 and it totally destroys the wood into splinters. At that range to a human i have no doubt that there would be no reason to chamber a second round,i don,t care how big or strong he is. So as silly as this seems i think it could also depend on the time of year. I don't see (around here) to many people wearing a heavy leather jacket in the summer whens it's 85 degrees outside. There was a story not long ago about a 13 or so old girl in Montana that meet 2 burglers in her house. She meet the first one about 2 steps outside her bedroom door.What they did not know is she was a vetrain compitition shooter. Short of the story is first one at about 10 feet one shot to the midsection,Dead on the spot,second one got it in the groin area and made it about 10 feet out the door before he died. Now the story did not specifically say what shot was in the gun,But i would have to assume it was run of the mill game or target load shot in there. Bird shot is a different story im sure,but do not think for a second that if you get hit unprotected with it at 6 or 8 feet that you are going to walk away from it and brush the sand off outside. You will be walking toward the bright white light asking for forgivness. The massive amout of tissue damage is going to shut you down very fast. It will be the faster blood donation you have ever made.
As for shooting it at 25 yards at someone,UMMM do you live in a Mansion?.
I have a 3000 sq foot house,My farthest shot i could take in this house is maybe 25 feet.Most senarios would be 10 feet or less. The concern of hitting others is still there,that is a given with any gun single projectile or multipal.
bridshot at close range to raw flesh would be very,very deadly. I have shot birdshot at say 6 feet into a 2 x 4 and it totally destroys the wood into splinters. At that range to a human i have no doubt that there would be no reason to chamber a second round,i don,t care how big or strong he is. So as silly as this seems i think it could also depend on the time of year. I don't see (around here) to many people wearing a heavy leather jacket in the summer whens it's 85 degrees outside. There was a story not long ago about a 13 or so old girl in Montana that meet 2 burglers in her house. She meet the first one about 2 steps outside her bedroom door.What they did not know is she was a vetrain compitition shooter. Short of the story is first one at about 10 feet one shot to the midsection,Dead on the spot,second one got it in the groin area and made it about 10 feet out the door before he died. Now the story did not specifically say what shot was in the gun,But i would have to assume it was run of the mill game or target load shot in there. Bird shot is a different story im sure,but do not think for a second that if you get hit unprotected with it at 6 or 8 feet that you are going to walk away from it and brush the sand off outside. You will be walking toward the bright white light asking for forgivness. The massive amout of tissue damage is going to shut you down very fast. It will be the faster blood donation you have ever made.
As for shooting it at 25 yards at someone,UMMM do you live in a Mansion?.
I have a 3000 sq foot house,My farthest shot i could take in this house is maybe 25 feet.Most senarios would be 10 feet or less. The concern of hitting others is still there,that is a given with any gun single projectile or multipal.
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spacecoast
New member
Birdshot at 20 feet from a 18.5" barrel... it's not going to feel good, but there's no way I would trust this pattern to bring down someone in heavy clothing or leather.
On the other hand, 00 buck at 20 feet is devastating (2 shots shown). Each hole is a 55 grain .33" diameter ball at well over 1000 fps, and there are nine of them in each shot -
On the other hand, 00 buck at 20 feet is devastating (2 shots shown). Each hole is a 55 grain .33" diameter ball at well over 1000 fps, and there are nine of them in each shot -
xMINORxTHREATx
New member
"faster blood donation ever made"
I agree. If someone breaks into my house shirtless, birdshot may just do the trick.
But I honestly think even a heavy sweatshirt would minimize the damage. Like I said, my test with an el-cheapo leather jacket only had a handfull of pellets penetrate less than 1/4 of an inch. I'm sure it would leave a massive bruise but nothing more serious than that. Might be better off with high-brass BEAN BAG rounds.
I agree. If someone breaks into my house shirtless, birdshot may just do the trick.
But I honestly think even a heavy sweatshirt would minimize the damage. Like I said, my test with an el-cheapo leather jacket only had a handfull of pellets penetrate less than 1/4 of an inch. I'm sure it would leave a massive bruise but nothing more serious than that. Might be better off with high-brass BEAN BAG rounds.