Home defense: Rifle or shotgun in addition to pistol?
- Thread starter PunchPaper
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RedneckFur
New member
I'm assuming that by home defense you mean defending inside your home? Unless you live in an unuasually large house, the longest range you'll likely ever face inside your home is about 10 yards, with a more realistic distance being 3-5 yards. Handgun or shotgun will work best at that range. A rifle will be diffult to manuver, and will be far more likely to over penetrate and injure somone innocent.
A rifle would be best for outdoors, but thats more SHTF and less home defence.
A rifle would be best for outdoors, but thats more SHTF and less home defence.
For HD, consider your circumstances and the longest shot that you might have to take. Shotguns excel at close range fights with multiple, moving, lightly armored bg's. Someone said a shotgun is what you take to dominate a pistol fight.
Handguns are only valuable because they are easily portable. You can carry one out into the world or you can carry it to back up a longgun. One should not make a handgun the first layer of HD.
If you think you might take a shot more than 25 yds or so, you should consider a rifle. A compact rifle like an AR or AK will do everything a shotgun will do but at up to 100 yds. The best thing about an AR or AK is that it scares the sheep and the gun-grabbers don't want you have one. If you don't have one - preferably several - now, you may never be able to get one.
On the issue of overpenetration...I'd like to see the documentation of one case of SD where a round overpenetrated and struck an innocent. I hear it all the time when someone talks about rifles for HD, but I think this is more an imagined problem.
Handguns are only valuable because they are easily portable. You can carry one out into the world or you can carry it to back up a longgun. One should not make a handgun the first layer of HD.
If you think you might take a shot more than 25 yds or so, you should consider a rifle. A compact rifle like an AR or AK will do everything a shotgun will do but at up to 100 yds. The best thing about an AR or AK is that it scares the sheep and the gun-grabbers don't want you have one. If you don't have one - preferably several - now, you may never be able to get one.
On the issue of overpenetration...I'd like to see the documentation of one case of SD where a round overpenetrated and struck an innocent. I hear it all the time when someone talks about rifles for HD, but I think this is more an imagined problem.
over penetration must be a large concern unless you live in the country alone the thought hurting a family member or neighbor is not a pretty picture, given that I tried a few rounds at some demolished home material [a section of wall with sheetrock on both sides] after a few roundsI settled on a 20 ga with 7 1/2 shoot given the distance inside the home the effect is total penetration of one wall ,when a second wall was set up behind none of the pellets made it through the second wall , I know it wouldn't penetrate body armor I can't imagine the impact at 10 to 20 ft.
model70fan
New member
Has anyone seen a coyote shot with #2 BIRDSHOT at 10 yds? good enough to kill a 'yote at 10 yds, plenty good enough to stop a BG in his tracks at 10. Just my 2 cents
greenacres
Inactive
I think it depends on what you are comfortable with, and everyone is different. My home defense gun is a 20 gauge shotgun loaded with buckshot kept under my bedroom. I have practiced walking around the house with it and pretending to shoot at intruders. This is a gun made for hunting and I go hunting with it a LOT. I know my house well enough that I can easily walk around in the dark if I have to. I am intimately familiar with this gun and am accustomed to using it around obstacles such as trees and brush, so I see no advantage for me to use a short barreled shotgun for home defense. For me this is a good choice, but for others it might not be.
RedneckFur
New member
The three most common recomended HD rifle calibers i see reccomended are .223, .308, and 7.62x39. Do you think that they will not penetrate any interior and most exterior walls of a home? There are tests that show a 7.62x39 penetrating over 10inches of pine lumber. Not the sort of thing I'd want to be shooting in my house when there's a chance it could hit the nighbors kids. Stick to handguns and small-ish buckshot.
Rifleman 173
New member
I think of firearms as tools. Obviously, if you don't have the right tool for the right job... To me every American should own a number of different firearms and practice with them. I would say an American needs a minimum of at least 3 guns.
The first gun should be a decent handgun of medium or big bore diameter for close range personal protection. Such handguns should be used as a second line of defense for when the other (shoulder-mounted) guns fail to work.
For home defense a good shotgun should be the primary firearm for use. Such shotguns should be in 12, 16 or 20 guage. These firearms deliver a massive amount of power on a target at close range which is why they're so effective. Imagine getting hit with 9 or 11 .32 caliber bullets at one time which is what some of these shotguns do. Devestation has a name and it is "shotgun."
There may be a time when a shotgun is not the answer for a special shooting need. This is when you may need to deliver a single projectile on to a target with accuracy. Such shooting requires a good rifle. A rifle lets you shoot something at short distances with accuracy or, if need be, shoot further out with accuracy. So with a rifle you can cover from zero to hundreds of yards with well placed fire which is not something a shotgun or handgun can do.
So each firearm, to me, fills a different niche or covers a different area that I may need to fill. One other thing... I also think that different sights are something that need to be covered by a decent shooter. Not all sight systems are right for everybody. For close range work I think metal sights are probably the quickest and easiest to use. For shooting over 50 yards I like a low power (1 X 4 variable power) scope system mounted on my rifles. For speed shooting I like red dots or red donut systems. I have no intention of shooting out over 100 yards unless I go to war so I practice my shooting scenarios for being realistic and under 100 yards or less. So decent firearms, decent sighting systems and realistic practice are all things that we should have available to us along with the right type and number of firearms.
The first gun should be a decent handgun of medium or big bore diameter for close range personal protection. Such handguns should be used as a second line of defense for when the other (shoulder-mounted) guns fail to work.
For home defense a good shotgun should be the primary firearm for use. Such shotguns should be in 12, 16 or 20 guage. These firearms deliver a massive amount of power on a target at close range which is why they're so effective. Imagine getting hit with 9 or 11 .32 caliber bullets at one time which is what some of these shotguns do. Devestation has a name and it is "shotgun."
There may be a time when a shotgun is not the answer for a special shooting need. This is when you may need to deliver a single projectile on to a target with accuracy. Such shooting requires a good rifle. A rifle lets you shoot something at short distances with accuracy or, if need be, shoot further out with accuracy. So with a rifle you can cover from zero to hundreds of yards with well placed fire which is not something a shotgun or handgun can do.
So each firearm, to me, fills a different niche or covers a different area that I may need to fill. One other thing... I also think that different sights are something that need to be covered by a decent shooter. Not all sight systems are right for everybody. For close range work I think metal sights are probably the quickest and easiest to use. For shooting over 50 yards I like a low power (1 X 4 variable power) scope system mounted on my rifles. For speed shooting I like red dots or red donut systems. I have no intention of shooting out over 100 yards unless I go to war so I practice my shooting scenarios for being realistic and under 100 yards or less. So decent firearms, decent sighting systems and realistic practice are all things that we should have available to us along with the right type and number of firearms.
I carry a handgun or two because I don't belive I'm going to get in a gunfight.
If I know I'm going to need a gun I will take either a rifle or shotgun. Rifles, with good ammo selection, can be used in the urban environment, but I prefer and recommend the shotgun for the urban environment. In fact it's my bedroom defense weapon. The myth about not needing to aim with a shotgun is false. All guns need to be aimed.
If we could carry long guns in public I would, but that's not an option in most communities. I'd love to carry a shotgun on a "Tac Sling" as I walk around the grocery store doing my shopping.
Biker
If I know I'm going to need a gun I will take either a rifle or shotgun. Rifles, with good ammo selection, can be used in the urban environment, but I prefer and recommend the shotgun for the urban environment. In fact it's my bedroom defense weapon. The myth about not needing to aim with a shotgun is false. All guns need to be aimed.
If we could carry long guns in public I would, but that's not an option in most communities. I'd love to carry a shotgun on a "Tac Sling" as I walk around the grocery store doing my shopping.
Biker
if it's for home defense a good coach gun with external hammer, it's compact, plenty of ability to stop a BG, it's cheap easy to handle, if it say "click" you still have the other triger and no need to manipulate in a hurry while adrenaline is pumping AND in front of a jury it won't look like a "evil tactical riffle". Remember that survive the fight is one thing, after that you'll have to survive the court!
Try to explain to people who doesn't know sh**t about guns that you needed a AK to defend your home! They look at it as military evil weapon, a coach gun look more like "grand dad hunting tool".
Jeff Cooper who knew a great deal concerning gun fight said a fight involving shotgun almost never exceded 2 rounds, and if you should discharge your coach gun, then you have the 45 to back it up.
Try to explain to people who doesn't know sh**t about guns that you needed a AK to defend your home! They look at it as military evil weapon, a coach gun look more like "grand dad hunting tool".
Jeff Cooper who knew a great deal concerning gun fight said a fight involving shotgun almost never exceded 2 rounds, and if you should discharge your coach gun, then you have the 45 to back it up.
Some good points have already been posted so I'll just add my $.02 worth. Handguns are very portable and easy to keep at hand (no pun intended) for when things first go bump in the night. However, handguns are far more difficult to shoot accurately under stress than a longarm and aren't as effective as, say, a 12ga w/a well-chosen load. Yes, longarms are more difficult to manuever indoors but if your strategy is to wait in place while covering the doorway after calling the cops then that point is moot. My own HD plans include an FN FiveseveN w/TLR-1 taclight doing nightstand duty with an inexpensive but reliable pump shotgun nearby (also w/taclight, I'm a big believer in ID'ing the target).
Why a inexpensive shotgun? Two primary reasons: 1) Expect it to be confiscated by the cops after a shoot, you may or may not get it back, and 2) The shotgun can shred an intruder yet that is far more acceptable to the media & public than using an "evil" EBR for SD.
Tomac
Why a inexpensive shotgun? Two primary reasons: 1) Expect it to be confiscated by the cops after a shoot, you may or may not get it back, and 2) The shotgun can shred an intruder yet that is far more acceptable to the media & public than using an "evil" EBR for SD.
Tomac
Para Bellum
New member
Rifle! (.223 penetrates less that shotgun)
A rifle, preferably a bullpub-design in .223 like a Steyr AUG or a FAMAS:
With adequate ammo a .223 has a much LOWER risk of overpenetration than even a 9x19mm or a shotgun with buckshot (or certainly slugs).
Here is a lot of very good information on .223 ammo an penetration:
1: http://www.ammo-oracle.com/
2: http://www.le.atk.com/Images/CatalogThumbs/223RifleDataBook.jpg
Anyway: A good coachgun is pretty good as well...
Heres the cheap and reliable Baikal IZH-43KH:
Bottom Line: The rifle is more accurate, has more capacity and precision, is more versatile 1yd - 200yds no problem, and offers as much "stopping power" as a shotgun
A rifle, preferably a bullpub-design in .223 like a Steyr AUG or a FAMAS:
With adequate ammo a .223 has a much LOWER risk of overpenetration than even a 9x19mm or a shotgun with buckshot (or certainly slugs).
Here is a lot of very good information on .223 ammo an penetration:
1: http://www.ammo-oracle.com/
2: http://www.le.atk.com/Images/CatalogThumbs/223RifleDataBook.jpg
Anyway: A good coachgun is pretty good as well...
Heres the cheap and reliable Baikal IZH-43KH:
Bottom Line: The rifle is more accurate, has more capacity and precision, is more versatile 1yd - 200yds no problem, and offers as much "stopping power" as a shotgun
MTMilitiaman
New member
Never mind that two of the four listed cons exist equally with the shotgun, another is simply an issue of ammunition selection, and the other is a non-issue in most situations. A rifle carbine is no more difficult to maneuver around the house and no more likely to be snatched away from the user than a shotgun, over penetration is grossly exaggerated as a concern, namely because it can be largely eliminated with a little foresight given to ammunition selection, and rifles are good because they can engage at long distances if it is needed.
The point is that the rifle has the capability, which the others do not. In fact, the rifle has a lot of capabilities that the others do not--capacity, fire rate, the versatility afforded by changing penetrative capabilities with a simple mag swap, and lower recoil, to name a few.
Handguns are more compact and easier to maneuver. If I am just checking out a noise on the porch or a random sound in the driveway, I am probably just grabbing a handgun. But if I hear my door get bashed in or I hear strange voices in the living room, I am grabbing a rifle--probably my AK with a reflex sight. And truth be told, maneuvering with a carbine really isn't all that difficult, and neither is weapon retention. There is a position, which as I learned it is referred to as "Under Arm Assault," in which the butt of the rifle is pinched between the side and the elbow of the firing hand, with the axis of the bore parallel to the deck. In this position, the muzzle is naturally squared to the hips, which are squared on the target. The rifle can be held in this position almost indefinitely with little strain, and because the stock is tucked back, it serves to make the package shorter. In this position, one can use their support hand to open doors, turn on lights, operate a phone, handle a dog, guide a family member, grapple with an assailant, or whatever. Weapon retention is relatively simple as well, esp if the attacker is untrained and simply grabs the muzzle. A good sling doesn't hurt either. With the rifle slung, you can literally just let go of the rifle completely and let them play with the muzzle while you eye gouge them or punch them in the throat. It's a simple matter of training and common sense.
Of the handgun, the shotgun, and the rifle, the shotgun is the least useful and the most specialized. Compared to the capabilities offered by the other choices, its absence would be easiest to absorb. While both the shotgun and the rifle can handle the simple home break in scenarios, in a situation such as Katrina, the rifle's advantage in range, accuracy, capacity, and penetration could prove vital. Say a natural disaster strikes, power is out, and general lack of law and order ensues when authorities fail to bring basic services online fast enough. You have food, pure water, medical supplies, and batteries to keep you and yours safe, provided you can stay put and wait it out. It doesn't take all that much of a stretch of the imagination to have someone taking pot shots through your windows with a rifle from a couple hundred yards away. As noted, a rifle can easily penetrate several walls, and go most of the way through an entire house, if so loaded. With a shotgun, you are left no option other than to grab what you can carry and displace until the threat moves on of his own accord. With a rifle, you can at least return fire. If you're bugging out and someone engages you with a rifle, you can easily find yourself out gunned if you have only a shotgun or handgun. Not only in range, but in availability of cover. Neither the handgun nor the shotgun affords the ability to defeat barriers, if so loaded, to the degree of a rifle. And while these may not be concerns for the vast majority of home defense scenarios, in terms of usefulness and practicality, if only one can be chosen, the rifle wins, hands down.
Y'all are looking at it the wrong way. Rifles are not just long range affairs and when your life is on the line, there is no such things as "overkill." Rather, shotguns are simply close range affairs lacking the range, accuracy, and versatility of the rifle.
I conceal carry and I used to come home, get in my safe-at-home mode, and put my weapon away. Don't know why I changed, but I have been keeping my CCW weapon on me the last couple of months while at home. Could be that I too am paranoid, but just as well, I might be prepared one day when I need to be. Plus, if the weapon is on me, then I consider it secured.
Para Bellum
New member
Why do people feel safe at home?
Perfectly right. I carry 24/7. When I sleep, the gun ist holstered in a holster mounted to my right (strong hand) bed side. Where I live we have a lot of home-burgler-robberies taking place when the patrons are present. Makes it easier for the BGs to open the safes etc...
Good reads from everyone!
Personally I like my Benelli M190 loaded up for the house. I, like many others, see no real practicality of a rifle. Even my shorty AR has too many drawbacks when compared to my shotgun or pistol in my opinion.
And I don't know if there is anything scarier than hearing a 12 gauge shell being shucked into the chamber in a dark house.
Here in MS, they now do not have to be IN your house to be considered a threat and ok to fire upon. Even with that said..... if the perp is outside I don't see me needing an AR to get to him.
Personally I like my Benelli M190 loaded up for the house. I, like many others, see no real practicality of a rifle. Even my shorty AR has too many drawbacks when compared to my shotgun or pistol in my opinion.
And I don't know if there is anything scarier than hearing a 12 gauge shell being shucked into the chamber in a dark house.
Here in MS, they now do not have to be IN your house to be considered a threat and ok to fire upon. Even with that said..... if the perp is outside I don't see me needing an AR to get to him.
geterdun444
Inactive
I am a certified weapons and special tactics instructor. What is and what should always be the first line in home defense is the reliable 12 gauge pump action. OO buck is a very good place to start. I should mention that where I live you realy dont have to worry about neighbors.
We usualy do not have to worry about home invasions here although as of late the crime is starting to move north towards us.
We actualy had our first home invasion in town last saturday night. 2 people broke into a house where they thought no one was home. Boy were they surprised when the lone male was home.
12 gauge to the rescue one intruder will probably lose his leg and the other they are still saying is in critical condition.
The home owner shot them right threw the wall of the entry way. He figured they got past his dog so anyone comeing in his house was dangerous.
No charges have or will be filed by the local police against the home owner.
Anytime you can take down a threat without exposing yourself to danger it is a good thing and a pistol in this instance just would not have done the job
We usualy do not have to worry about home invasions here although as of late the crime is starting to move north towards us.
We actualy had our first home invasion in town last saturday night. 2 people broke into a house where they thought no one was home. Boy were they surprised when the lone male was home.
12 gauge to the rescue one intruder will probably lose his leg and the other they are still saying is in critical condition.
The home owner shot them right threw the wall of the entry way. He figured they got past his dog so anyone comeing in his house was dangerous.
No charges have or will be filed by the local police against the home owner.
Anytime you can take down a threat without exposing yourself to danger it is a good thing and a pistol in this instance just would not have done the job