Home defense longgun: Remington 11-87 (12ga) or Steyr AUG-Z (.223)?

As for cuffs, yes I am trained to use cuffs and have cuffed many people in a prior life... the plastic ones are the cheapest and best. Lie the subject face down with arms and legs outstretched, instruct him to place his hands behind his back, tie the cuffs with your free hand with HANDgun trained on him. Simple with a handgun. Not sure with a rifle.

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There is not a trainer of civilians I know of that suggests a civilian try to cuff a BG.

Leadcounsel: Get on the ground.
BG - turns and starts to walk out the door.

Now what!

Also the penetration discussion is screwed. You haven't studied the tests of 223 rounds in houses.
 
Mike,

Fine, you WIN on the penetration. After thinking more about maneuvers and the possibility of being jumped or needing peripheral vision, I'll take the pistol for scouting work in the house.

BG handcuffing is situational. I want to defend my life and my home (and future family).

BG is an immediate threat, he'll be scrapped from the walls.

BG a less immediate threat, he'll get ordered to the ground and cuffed. I would have zero problem cuffing a BG laying prone on the ground, because I would have a one handed weapon pointed at his vitals. A person would be an idiot to resist. If he resists BANG, problem solved. How many people disobey a civilian pointing a gun at them?

IF, in BG's judgement he turns and leaves, problem temporarily solved. Give a description to the police and let them deal with him. I want to protect myself from threats, not murder people when it can be avoided. Highly unlikedly he'll return, don't you think?

Finally, I live in Colorado where a home owner CAN shoot to kill anyone they discover unlawfully in their home with ABSOLUTE IMMUNITY from criminal prosection or civil liability. The law does not require that the intruder even be armed, and the law has been interpreted as allowing a homeowner to shoot a prone or disabled intruder, and would likely even be read to allow the homeowner to shoot an intruder in the back if necessary. You just can't follow him outside.

Scenario: I catch intruder armed with non-gun violent weapon. I tell him to surrender. He tells me where to stick it, and I stick it in his face. It's that simple. Or I keep him for the cops. Or I let him walk. My choice, not his.
 
Para Bellum, . . . I'm going to play the other card here for a minute.

I understand we are talking "Home Defense", . . . not Tikrit or Bagdhad.

In a HD scenario the shotgun is a far better weapon, especially if you have trained to reload between firings. In the long run a good semi auto shotty will hold 7 or 8 rounds, . . . a stock sleeve can hold another 6 or 8 and a forearm sleeve another 6 or 8.

We are talking about doing in a determined bg or 2, . . . at most 3, . . . or holding out till the cavalry (LEO's) arrive. This is not Pork Chop Hill or Guadalcanal.

Staying with the HD idea, . . . virtually any LEO will tell you that anyone who would attempt to clear a modern house alone, . . . is like the guy playing his own lawyer, . . . he's got a fool for a client. Don't do it, . . . LEO's get paid to do it, . . . can travel in pairs, . . . and have far more equipment and training than we will ever get.

Play the coward, . . . hunker down in the bedroom, . . . make him/them come to you, . . . a 12ga load of 00 buck in his face will definitely spoil his whole day, . . . and you got 18 more rounds waiting for any follow up bg.

Even if the turkey is wearing super threat body armor, . . . it don't cover the face. Slugs will also hurt him bad with or without armor, . . . while the .223 can be absorbed and he can still come get you.

Oh, . . . yeah, . . . that is my plan and you can use it without any royalties. :D

May God bless,
Dwight
 
Folks, if you are a new person to the home defense business, please get some legitimate training before listening to a good deal of the tough guy baloney posted here.

You might not believe folks in an argument - but get trained.
 
I hope I'm not the "tough guy" you're referring to.... I'm advocating bunkering down in the locked bedroom, calling LEO, and training the gun on the door and waiting. Also, I'm advocating body armor and ear protection....

Glenn, it seems to me that you're the one advocating going in a room by room sweep with an AR-15...

Which is more Rambo and dangerous?
 
Dwight- ever tried to reload a shotgun under stress? You can reload
all day long with two hands busy (Where does your cell phone or flashlight go?) if you want to close the gap to the 5.56 carbine.

"Shooting into the face" with buckshot isn't possible with most combat shotgun chokes even at 10-15meters. Why limit yourself to that?
What about stray buckshot pellets? Personally, I would hate to kill a family
member because I can't account for each bullet I fire.

And as far as the handgun is concerned- all handgun calibers are piss poor stoppers! "Garanteed 90% one shot stopping power"... now you can achieve that with a nuclear device- but not with a firearm. ;)

As for overpenetration, you admit that a pistol or shotgun won't penetrate body armor but a .223 will. Then you said that a pistol and shotgun WILL overpenetrate walls more than a .223. Which is it?
If barriers are anything like vests, I'd extrapolate that drywall, wood, etc. will stop bullets similarly to vests. .
Click to expand...

Its a huge difference if a bullet has to penetrate several layers oft soft
fabric or hard material like plywood, bricks, etc. In the first case, 5.56 will penetrate, whereas in the second case the bullet will start to tumble after
the first few inches and desintegrate.

The close range penetration tests conducted indicated that high velocity .223 rounds were initially unstable and may, depending on their construction, disintegrate when they strike an object that offers some resistance. When concrete, brick or macadam are struck at an angle at close range, .223 rounds tent to fragment or break up, and ricochets are generally less hazardous. The .223 could consequently be considered safer for urban street engagements, because of its inherent frangibility within the cross-compartments created by street environments. In other words, in most shootings, the round would probably strike something, hopefully a hard object, break up and quickly end its potentially lethal odyssey.


The hollow point cavity in the .40S&W round filled with material when shot through the wall. This caused [these bullets] to fail to expand when they entered the gelatin. As a result, they penetrated 8.5" farther than when shot directly into the gelatin.

When the .223 [HP] was shot through he wall it began to fragment and as a result penetrated the gelatin only 5.5".

Because the .223 [HP] begins to break up on impact, it has less potential for damage or injury than the 12 ga. in the event of a ricochet. The .223 [HP] is obviously safer in an urban environment than the 12 ga. with slugs or buckshot.
Click to expand...

http://www.olyarms.com/?page=223articles
 
Leadcounsel - I didn't advocate anything. I said that you were wrong on a myriad of technical details and tatical suggestions.

I said:

No offense, Leadcounsel but you sure have a lot of urban mythology in your post. I'm too lazy to take it apart line by line but I would just caution new folks to take what you say with a great deal of pinches of salt.

-----------

Thus, for you to give detail advice so full of misinformation is not really useful. I suggested folks study or train so that they have correct info.
 
Points well taken Glenn, but I suspect you edited the post I responded to....

Anyway, good discussion.

I'll still use the .40 pistol for scouting, but likely won't be scouting if I think there is a real threat. I'll take a barricaded defensive position with a vest, electronic ear protection, and a shotgun or .223 trained on the door and LEO on the way.
 
What a joke - you may note that the forum marks if you edit posts. Geez - :rolleyes:

Oh, well - on the Internet no one knows if you are a dog. Or a poser.
 
FWIW, I have an 870 loaded with 8-pellet Tactical buckshot and slugs sitting in the same closet next to a scoped Mini-14 which is loaded with 55-grain TAP ammo. I also have a Glock 30 loaded with 230-grain HSHPs in the same closet and a Glock 21 loaded with the same rounds and a weaponslight attached next to my bed.

Why limit yourself to one tool? As long as you know how to use them and when to use them, the more options I have the better off I will be. JM2CW.
 
For anyone on the fence about HD weapons and bullet penetration, check out the following link to drywall penetration.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

The conclusion is that .223, .40, 9mm, and Shotgun all ridiculously overpenetrate many many sheets of drywall stacked upright 10' apart.
 
I think using a rifle in an indoor urban environment is a bad idea. YOu can do ballistics all night long..but in my opinion there is just way to much chance of it going through a wall killing a relative or taking out a neighbood. Same for slugs.. Personally if you expect that kind of assault on your house wouldnt it just be better to line the floorboards with semtex and blow the whole place sky high? Lol just a thought.
 
Just wanted to clear up a little misguidance about shotguns, and their accuracy. People most often believe that shotguns loaded with slugs are accurate only up to 20 yards or so. And that perhaps, the greatest ones can produce accurate groups at 50 yards. This is not at all true. I live in Indiana. I am an avid hunter of many things including whitetail deer. Indiana is a shotgun state. You cannot hunt with centerfire rifles. My choice in arms is a Remington Model 1100 with the Vent Rib 28'' modified barrel for squirrel and such. I used an ithaca with a 30'' full choke for the longest, but am more impressed with what the 28" modified does using propper ammo, such as winchesters supreame line. For deer, I use a Remington Model 11-87 with a full rifled slug barrel. Recent innovations made by many manufactures, Remington at the top I would say, have made shotguns be able to give rifle like performance at the longest distance any hunter aside from those that hunt the vast plains ect, would need. Just to give you an example, check out the spec's on Remingtons New Core Lokt Ultra Bonded. Now there's your defense round. http://www.remington.com/ammo/shotshell/am_prsabotslug.htm
 
Leadcounsel,

thank you for your time and compehensive post.
Shooting a bad guy with your kid or wife as a hostage is completely irresponsible and dangerous and has legal consequences. And imagine missing and hitting your family!
Click to expand...
That, however depends. I already had a situation which makes my scenario pretty realistic. Just imagine not intervening and watch your family or co-workers being killed (a maniac stabbed my business-partner into the head several times until the knife broke 10 months ago).

To take a load off good sir Mayers shoulders, for one, hollowpoints clog and act as FMJs a good amount of the time in walls. Two, a .45 or 9mm can travel well over 500 yards. Three, pistol bullets, .223 and slugs will all penetrate about the same through walls, to the point of it not making a difference what you use. In fact, heavier bullets like pistol or slugs will usually penetrate more walls, although marginally so. Four, any of them can kill neighbors a block away.

Also, buckshot will still kill a family member a wall or two away.
Click to expand...
right. Thats's why I choose Remington EFMJ (these always expand) in pistols and RUAG Special Operations as .223 ammunition. With these I am confident not to overpenetrate. Same applies to EMB-Handgun ammo if the soft target is hit first. That's what I see as a great advantage over buckshot...

Let the professionals handle it
Click to expand...
What makes you so sure that "the professionals" you think of are better trained or more capable?

I understand we are talking "Home Defense", . . . not Tikrit or Bagdhad.
Click to expand...
What is the difference, really? Distances and number of assilants may vary everywhere. And every peaceful neigbourhood can become New Orleans (or LA as the riots went down) quickly.

Staying with the HD idea, . . . virtually any LEO will tell you that anyone who would attempt to clear a modern house alone, . . . is like the guy playing his own lawyer, . . . he's got a fool for a client. Don't do it, . . . LEO's get paid to do it, . . . can travel in pairs, . . . and have far more equipment and training than we will ever get.
Click to expand...
I'd never clear my house. But I'd go defend my family members anytime. And the assumption that the LEOs who might come have fare more training and better equipment is something I can't confirm in my case. I also wouldn't rely on that for yourself. Go compete in IPSC, IDPA or whatever there is. Compare your skills to the LEOs who compete. Some LEOs are extremely good. But these are less than 1%, I assume.
If there's time to wait for SWATS negotiators and hostage rescue teams, I would wait of course. Because if so, there is neither the need nor the chance to immediately intervene. So personmal intervention would be foolish.

But what if there is no time to loose? What if there's just a mad pitbull outside and still kids out at the playgroud? What if you need to be quick an surgical? And what if you couln't forgive yourself for having waited untill the LEO came...
 
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