Leadcounsel has obviously studied his Ayoob very closely! I'm an LFI grad, too, but I don't take Massad's opinions as gospel.
"The best plan if you know there's an intruder is to equip yourself with gun, phone, body armor, ear protection, and eye protection, get your family safe and lock your door and find a defensive or conceal position in your room with the gun trained on the door. Then quietly call the police and wait."
Good advice, but if I called the cops every time I heard a noise in my house, I'd be on the Mesa PD's "paranoid" list in short order, and they'd take an hour to get here if I had a real emergency. Sometimes you need to go take a look. Yeah, it's not "tactically correct" in the Ayoob school, but it's reality.
"For disturbances in the middle of the night, I reach for my Glock 35 .40 with a 15 rd clip and flashlight, phone, vest and electronic ear protectors. I can bullseye regularly at 15', it has near 90-95% 1 shot knockdown with hollowpoint Corbons, low overpenetration risk, and I can squeeze off several accurate shots in a moment. AND, the sound is tolerable."
Great. My AR carbine holds 30 rounds in the "clip," can regularly hit a dime at 15 feet, and has a flashlight attached to it. I don't know what .223 "OSS" percentage is with Marshall and Sanow, because their work is totally discredited. I'm willing to bet a .223 hurts more than a .40, though. .223 has lower dangerous overpenetration risk than .40, as reported by FBI, Gunsite, etc. .223 is extremely easy to shoot fast and well, moreso than any pistol I have ever fired.
You state you have electronic hearing protection. Why is the noise of a .223 carbine an issue, in that case? Anyway, I'm in the National Guard and have talked to many Iraq war vets. None were deaf due to firing M4s in urban environments, and they fired far more rounds than any home defender will. None were stunned, disoriented, confused, or suffered a concussive head injury due to the noise.
"Let's talk about the LIKELIHOOD?. Scenario 1, hearing strange noises in the house and needing a gun, I'd chose a reliable, accurate, maneuverable, with hi capacity of shots, and good take down and not overwhelmingly loud or without alot of overpenetration gun and caliber. For me that's a .40 5" handgun which will take care of 99% of the situations."
For me that's a 16" AR. It's more accurate than a pistol, just as maneuverable, has a 30 round mag (I download to 28), hits harder than a pistol, has reduced penetration with the right ammo. It is louder than a pistol, but I think that is a non-issue, as I mention above.
"Scenario 2, needing the firepower of a 12 gauge to stop a large and very aggressive threat immediately that won't be stopped by a accurate handgun. Can't really think of any realistic situations myself, so it's unlikely but possible. Maybe a situation where you are outnumbered, the threat is larger or more prepared or better armed or has body armor."
Ummm...a .223 rifle performs far better on armor than a pistol or a shotgun. Buckshot is pretty much useless on armor. Slugs are also defeated by most armor, though the blunt trauma to the recipient may be severe.
"Also, I don't see your idea of taking out bad guys with hostages as at all realistic. Shooting a bad guy with your kid or wife as a hostage is completely irresponsible and dangerous and has legal consequences. And imagine missing and hitting your family! Let the professionals handle it."
I agree that it is unrealistic. However, it is a remote possibility, and I would be far more comfortable taking a hostage shot with a precise, shoulder-fired weapon (read: rifle) than a hard-to-shoot pistol or a scattergun.
And what if the "professionals" aren't around when you need them?
"Now, let's talk about your home defense weapon choice. First is SIZE. A pistol is a better choice because you can operate it with one hand and operate other things (eg a phone, light switches, door knobs, flashlights, pick up kids, open a window, hand cuff a subject, or struggle with a bad guy with a free hand)."
Yes, let's talk about SIZE. I just measured my 16" AR from the tip of my nose to the muzzle. It was 23 3/4", in a squared-up CQB stance. I then measured the same distance with a 5" 1911. It was 23 1/4" in a Modern Isosceles stance. Difference in length when both are in a firing stance: a whopping 1/2"! I bet the distance is even shorter with a bullpup like the AUG in question, but I don't have one to measure.
My AR has a Spectre tactical sling, and is a light-barreled carbine. It is easily operated one-handed if I need my left hand to operate something or carry a child. I notice the guys in Iraq manage to drag their wounded buddies (full grown men in 60 pounds of battle rattle) to safety. I bet most of us here could manage a seven pound carbine and twenty pound infant.
If you have to go hands-on with an intruder for some reason, where will you put your pistol? Maybe you have a holster attached to your body armor, but holstering while simultaneously fighting him off will be fun. As Massad says, "I shall wait for you here." With a tactical sling, I can just drop the rifle onto the sling and pound the snot out of the guy, or better yet I can flatten him with a buttstroke to the head. Try that with a Glock.
Do youhave cuffs attached to your armor, and do you have the training to use them? Handcuffing with no backup is foolish, and truly a job for the "professionals."
"Also, moving in confined spaces (hallways, doorways, small rooms, etc) is very hard with a shotgun or rifle. You simply cannot maneuver around corners, through doorways, open closet doors, or use the phone with a rifle."
Tell that to the guys who are doing all those things with M4s and M16A2s in Iraq this very minute.
Moving in confined spaces with a carbine is relatively easy if you spend some training time on it. It's just not a big deal. See nose-to-muzzle measurements above.
"Second is the very real threat of overpenetration with .223 or 12 gauge. A .223 will travel for 500 yards, whereas a .45 won't travel that far because it's slower and fatter and preferably hollow point. If you fire a .223 or 12 gauge slug and it goes through your wall, you could kill someone a block away(buckshot is probably the best choice of load for a shotgun in the home defense scenario). A handgun with hollowpoint defense ammo will expand and stop rather quickly, so it's less likely to hurt neighbors."
.223 is more likely to break up into less-dangerous fragments when traveling through typical building materials. This has been repeatedly shown in tests by various government agencies like FBI, as well as in the private sector at places like Gunsite.
Also, please note that the vast majority of shooters are more likely to get good hits with the rifle, versus missing more with a pistol. If you make hits on the intruder, chances of bullets sailing through walls are greatly diminished regardless of caliber. Also, hits reduce the number of rounds required to end the fight, as compared to misses. The gun that is easiest to shoot well is the safest for all concerned.
You have probably noticed the trend away from 9mm subguns to M4s among police tactical teams. This sea change would not be underway if .223 was as dangerous as some gun magazine writers make it out to be.
"Third, have you ever FIRED a shotgun or .223 inside a confined space without ear protection? It's a deafening BANG and could disorient the shooter. Everyone talks about "take down" or "penetration"...Shooting a big gun in confined spaces will do significant and likely permanent damage to your ears (and your family) and immediately make you dizzy, and could blur your vision, and interfer with problem solving (all important)."
See above comments on Iraq vets. No one I've talked to suffered immediate ill effects from firing 5.56mm rounds in confined spaces, nor have I seen mention of it in AARs I've read. By the way, have YOU, Leadcounsel, ever fired a .223 in confined quarters under combat stress?
This link shows some dB levels for various guns:
http://www.freehearingtest.com/hia_gunfirenoise.shtml. Please note that the 9mm pistol shows 159.8 dB, the .45 ACP pistol 157.0 dB, the 18" 12 gauge 161.5 dB, and the 18" .223 rifle 155.5 dB. The .223 was actually quieter than anything but pocket pistol rounds, the low-pressure .45 Colt, and smaller-bore shotguns.
"If you MUST have a big gun get the shotgun."
Agreed that shotgun power is excellent. However, shotguns are heavier, bulkier, and longer than a carbine. According to the above chart, they are also louder. Shotguns perform poorly on armored opponents. Shotguns recoil far more than .223 carbines, making them slower on multiple opponents. Pump shotguns like the 870 are more difficult to operate than semiauto carbines. Shotguns hold much less ammo.
"As I said though long guns are not practical for urban or interior home defense because they are unweildy, require two hands, and are loud, and the slug and .223 WILL overpenetrate."
None of which is actually true. The carbine is, for practical purposes, only 1/2" longer than a pistol, does not require two hands if it has a tactical sling, is apparently quieter than a pistol (and even if it isn't, no big deal), and shows less dangerous penetration due to the fragmentation effect.
Mike
