home defense: .410 over 12 gauge

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Three year old zombie thread back to life.

Any buckshot load is very much over rated. Buckshot is not allowed for deer hunting in many areas because it has been shown to be a poor performer. Most of the shotguns legendary stopping reputation is based on Hollywood BS. A 12 gauge would be low on my list of acceptable guns, a 410 is off the radar.
 
Kephas78

"For me and my family, I will use my .410 saiga 15rd shotgun"

I second you on that. I have a Saiga .410 close by in the bedroom. With a 10 rounder already locked in and two more on deck, I don't feel under armed. I would like to suggest a Kushnapup stock. Does a marvelous job of shortening it, making it handier. Mine has a 20 inch barrel but is around 30 inches long or so. I can get back to you with the exact length if interested (I'm couching it right now!:D). Also eliminates that "forward" heaviness.
 
zombie thread or not....

The use of BUCKSHOT loads on human targets has been shown to work VERY well.

LE for decades....Mil since WWI thru Vietnam, OO buck has been a good fight stopper inside 25yds or so. The fact it may not be a great hunting load is not relevant to its use as a SD load.

Inside its effective range (20-25 yds out of a cyl bore gun) #4, #1, OO or OOO buck all are effective. If you try to stretch the range out much further, the pattern density is poor and most pellets miss the tgt. Leading to less then steller results.

With Shots taken at reasonable distances the shotgun is a valid SD weapon
 
PER identical projectile ie.. The force between a .410 and a 12 gauge is identical. a single pellet of 00 buck from a .410 with strike with the same force as a single pellet from a 12 gauge. The pellets weigh the same(mass) and are travelling at the same speed(speed)... Mass x speed = force. So, each projectile will have identical penetration. The felt recoil on a 12 gauge is more because it has more OVERALL force. That's why a .410 can't produce near as wide a pattern with shot(which is useful for bird hunting) or use near as heavy a slug(which is useful for larger game hunting). However, it is generally agreed that Buckshot is the best choice for home defense. If a single round of 12 gauge with 10 balls of 00 buckshot is the gold standard, then my three rounds with 15(5 each) balls(which have equal penetration) is easily just as lethal.

More importantly, a single round of .410 ammo is infinitely more lethal than the zero rounds of 12 gauge ammo which my other household members are willing to fire. I can't always be home to protect my family. I need a weapon that everyone can use.

Yes, Buckshot isn't allowed for deer hunting in many areas because it is a poor performer(inaccurate). That's also because people hunting deer usually take shots from greater than 15 yards... and aren't in their living room. If I did shoot a deer in my living room I would probably get cited for baiting them.
 
PER identical projectile ie.. The force between a .410 and a 12 gauge is identical. a single pellet of 00 buck from a .410 with strike with the same force as a single pellet from a 12 gauge. The pellets weigh the same(mass) and are travelling at the same speed(speed)... Mass x speed = force. So, each projectile will have identical penetration. The felt recoil on a 12 gauge is more because it has more OVERALL force.
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.410 buckshot in 00 or 000 travels at about 800 fps velocity for standard buck. You can push it to perform at around 1300 fps with specialized ammo. The weight is 1/2 oz.

12 gauge 00 or 000 travels at about 1300 fps velocity for standard buck, or push it to perform at 1600+ fps. The weight is 1+ oz.

Given this FACT, the 12 gauge will be remarkably more potent and hit harder, all things equal. Each pellet will hit faster in a 12 gauge, and you'll have 2-3 times as many pellets and two or more times the overall mass entering the target. Individual pellets are not as important as the overall delivery of kinetic energy.

Any buckshot load is very much over rated. Buckshot is not allowed for deer hunting in many areas because it has been shown to be a poor performer.
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Sorry, but this is absolute nonsense. Deer hunting has little to do with home defense. By your rationale, my scoped .30-06 would make an excellent home defense rifle. Of course not. Deer hunting involves much different skills and weapons than home defense, and the goal is much different, the distances are vastly different, and deer hunting involves calculated aimed shots whereas home defense is very instant and reactionary against a human target.

The 12 gauge has long been and will long be a premier home defense weapon.
 
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A coupla things:
[t's why a .410 can't produce near as wide a pattern with shot
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Not so. The .410s patterns are going to be less dense than a 12 gauge pattern - because there is less shot in the pattern. The overall size - diameter - of the pattern will be similar to a 12 gauge (or any other gauge) if fired from the same degree of choke (all other things being equal)
About .410 buck velocity at 800 fps. I have not chrono'd any .410 buck but stated velocities on any that I have looked at (Winchester, Federal, Remington, Sellier and Belloit) are all in excess of 1130 fps. Slower than 12 gauge at 1300-1600 fps but way quicker than 800.
 
Round balls have proven to be VERY poor performers for hundreds of years, both before and after impact. They slow quickly after leaving the muzzle and are erratic and unpredictable after impact Buckshot of any size as well as slugs are slower than traditional muzzleloader speeds except for some magnum loads which will come close to matching

For hundreds of years 36 caliber muzzle loaders shooting round balls have been considered as "small" game loads. In other words rabbit and squirrel loads. Moving up to 45 caliber is usually considered the minimum for 150 lb whitetails and 50-58 caliber for larger game.

To expect good results from a few smaller 33 caliber round balls to be effective is in just the opposite of what has been observed for hundreds of years. At close ranges where 8-10 balls can all be placed in the vitals they can do the job. But even 12 ga doesn't always get all of the shot in the vitals. Any less than 8-10 and results are poor. The 410 starts with less than what is needed and unless you get a lucky hit the odds are not with you.

A 25 yard shot with most open choked guns is pushing the limits for 12 ga. No way I'd trust 410.
 
Standard over the counter .410 is as slow as 800 fps according to a variety of manufacturers. Getting up to even the entry of 12 gauge buck requires specialized defensive loads which are comparable to the cost of basic 12 ga buck with, again, 1/2 the lead.

Conversely, basic 12 gauge buck starts at 1300 fps.

12 gauge reduced recoil loads.
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An excellent option which bleeds off some of the recoil/velocity for a recoil sensitive shooter while maintaining the number and overall weight of the shot.
 
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